Crag etiquette and small rant.

Recently, I went to a sport climbing crag that has only a handful of routes. Upon arriving, I noticed someone was half way up the route, which I specifically wanted to try, and was obviously struggling since she was stick clipping her way up through the "difficult" moves. When my partner and I finally arrived, I asked if it would be ok if I could climb on the route. She agreed but with the condition that her rope be on top rope. So my second question was whether then I could climb on HER rope. I sensed that she was uncomfortable with that which is understandable, and so I just proceeded to tie into my own rope and lead the route- I lead it without difficulty but no send. Afterwards, my partner had to second, even though he wanted to lead it too, but we decided it was best for my partner to TR and trail the lady's rope so she can have her rope on TR. I'll admit it was super annoying. She kept her rope on the route for the rest of her session and continued to struggle on the route. The situation deterred me from wanting to try again for the redpoint because I didn't want to deal with all the shenanigans again.

So my question is what is the etiquette for this scenario? I feel like it's common sense to let a climber use your rope if you want it on top rope so bad. Thoughts?

personally I'd let someone else TR on my rope if I were her.

but your ability doesn't grant you any special place in line. If you really want to RP the route, ya gotta get up earlier.

As annoying as it is, I think they have the right of way since they were there first.

It’s pretty ridiculous to stick clip your way up a route; that’s another discussion.

The etiquette is - they got there first, leave them alone and find something else to climb. It really doesn't matter how well she climbed, whether she used a stick clip, etc.

I would let you use my rope in that situation and I think many other people would do the same. However I don't think anyone is obligated to.

I think if someone is actively climbing a route, even if they are struggling, it's their route until they are done. If we used a "better climber can step in and take over" rule, that would be a mess. Especially since some people think they are better than they really are.

caughtinside wrote:

If its not too steep, she could unclip the draws on her way down, and pull the top rope back or to the side, then you could reclip the rope into a directional or two on the way down.  Everyone wins.  

I agree. Pull the rope to the side. If that's not feasible, you and your partner can both take your burns and then one of you can re-climb to re-hang the TR. Coming back later for another burn? Repeat the process. Seems like nbd to me.

If both parties want to work a project, it seems like it wouldn't be that hard to negotiate a schedule of alternating burns.

Also, if you have led to the top of a sport climb and you're hanging from the anchors, it should not be that hard to figure out how to get someone else's rope up there from the ground.  

Different people are going to have different considerations.  Good communications to establish a relationship based on agreement seems best.

If tensions start to rise, both parties should stop and ask themselves: "What would Todd Gordon Do?"

So my question is what is the etiquette for this scenario?

Climb elsewhere

The etiquette at the crag shouldn't be who got there first, who needs to redpoint or onsight. It should be how to maximize the experience collectively in a timely manner. 

If I try to get on something that is at my limit (avg route length) I give myself 20 min to get up it. If I can't get up it in 20 min I lower off. It is more respectful to your partner and whomever else wants to climb it. I can get back on it and hang dog or someone else can get my gear if someone is waiting.

If you need 30 min- an hour on a climb you simply are being detrimental to your own progress and the morale of every person around. 

I did encounter a worse situation than this in red rocks. I asked someone if anyone was waiting for the climb next, they said my partner. I said cool. It then took that person over 30 minutes to aid up a route on TR. Which happens but is dumb. I then throw my stuff near the belay and then they tell me the other group is actually gonna TR it. 

JCM wrote:

I'm calling BS that. There are limits to the "first come first served" guideline. Putting a TR on a popular sport route and claiming it for the whole day is not reasonable, even if you did get there first.

Who said anything about "the whole day"?  (answer: only you). I'm sure one can find extreme examples, like you did, but generally, it's first come, first served.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

...

If you need 30 min- an hour on a climb you simply are being detrimental to your own progress and the morale of every person around. 

...

This is just silly. I agree with you that collective experience should be something of a priority. But saying that 20 minutes is ok but 30 minutes is not, well that's just unfounded. Plus, I would say that most (all?) high level sport climbers will spend upwards of 30 minutes on climbs while projecting, hanging, working out moves. It is not somehow detrimental to progress. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

The etiquette at the crag shouldn't be who got there first, who needs to redpoint or onsight. It should be how to maximize the experience collectively in a timely manner. 

If I try to get on something that is at my limit (avg route length) I give myself 20 min to get up it. If I can't get up it in 20 min I lower off. It is more respectful to your partner and whomever else wants to climb it. I can get back on it and hang dog or someone else can get my gear if someone is waiting.

If you need 30 min- an hour on a climb you simply are being detrimental to your own progress and the morale of every person around. 

I did encounter a worse situation than this in red rocks. I asked someone if anyone was waiting for the climb next, they said my partner. I said cool. It then took that person over 30 minutes to aid up a route on TR. Which happens but is dumb. I then throw my stuff near the belay and then they tell me the other group is actually gonna TR it. 

I guess it's settled, you can lock the thread now.

mike hwrote:

This is just silly. I agree with you that collective experience should be something of a priority. But saying that 20 minutes is ok but 30 minutes is not, well that's just unfounded. Plus, I would say that most (all?) high level sport climbers will spend upwards of 30 minutes on climbs while projecting, hanging, working out moves. It is not somehow detrimental to progress. 

I mean it is dependent on the area so whatever seems reasonable but being on a sport climb for an hour versus two 30 minute chucks doesn't honestly make that much sense. First, if you need an hour to stare at a climb your probably not going to red point it (especially if typical redpoint time is less than 3 minutes), in fact I don't think I have ever seen someone stare at a climb for an hour get even close to redpointing in this scenario. Second trying the same move for an hour is just harder than giving yourself a rest and coming back and trying it again. Third, most these people are not elite sport climbers. Pragmatically if you are trying to memorize something it is easier to do it in chunks. 

 I am not talking about ceuse (which an hour is reasonable), more like clear creek (which would be kinda horrifying if someone took an hour on an average climb there thinking of dudes diherdal?). Can you honestly say you taking an hour on an average clear creek climb is more effective for redpointing than two 30 minute goes? 

Rita Shhhwrote:

I lead it without difficulty but no send. 

How does one lead a route without difficulty but no send? 

Person who is there first has claim to the climb until they are done. Most people will be open to figuring out how to take turns or share if approached politely, but they are not obligated to. You are within your rights to think they are rude, but not to kick them off their climb before they are done or horn in against their wishes. I agree that hogging a line literally all day when other folks have shown interest is really bad etiquette.

Still, that person who got there first is on their own journey. You don't know their story or all the factors weighing into their decision-making. Maybe they're from out of town, or only get to climb rarely, and won't get another chance at that climb probably ever. Maybe they borrowed the gear and feel too responsible for it to let someone else use it. Maybe they are fighting fear or nerves or anxiety and having to negotiate with someone else would make them too uncomfortable to continue. Who knows? It's not their job to explain it to you. Part of being a good member of the community is supporting other climbers in their goals and having flexibility, good humor, and patience if the climb you want to do is occupied.

The exception is alpine or long multi-pitch where you might need to pass or share anchors for safety reasons if the party ahead is stuck or exceptionally slow. 

Spider Savagewrote:

Different people are going to have different considerations.  Good communications to establish a relationship based on agreement seems best.

If tensions start to rise, both parties should stop and ask themselves: "What would Todd Gordon Do?"

Todd would smile and offer to belay and tell you what an awesome job you are doing and keep trying.  If you offered to pull your rope so he could have the route he would say "nonsense, there are plenty of other routes for me to do"

If a group isn't actively climbing a route, but they want to leave gear on it for later, they have to be open to sharing.
- Always share hung draws
- Almost always share a top rope (maybe not if there's lots of rope rubbing and there's going to be hangdogging)
- If you want to lead it, and they want to leave a TR up, they should usually offer you their rope. Maybe not if it's a super skinny rope, there's sharp edges, etc. Or if you can easily flick the TR to the side and out of the way. But it's up to them to not block the route for others, and you should be considerate to help them after you're done (e.g. tagging up their rope from the anchor after you're done).

It's incredibly rare for there to not be a solution that makes every one happy without too much extra effort.

JCM wrote:

I'm just responding to what the OP described -the person they encountered kept the rope up her whole session (however long that was - presumably much of the climbing day) and then s discouraged OP from trying it again. That's not cool.

This happened to me not too long ago. A 2 pitch mp I wanted to do. When I arrived a couple where setting up to climb it. It was a 5.9/5.8 climb. So I went off to climb other stuff, come back a couple hours later and they had made it half way up the first pitch. Person A would climb to one bolt, put in a draw, lower, person B would climb to the next bolt, put in a draw, lower. Rinse, repeat, because neither of them where able to lead two bolts at a time and ever single move was a crux. Did a climb beside them and I hear Person A at the next bolt say "I forgot to bring a quick draw". 

At the end of the day when I left, they where still on the route.

James Riverawrote:

How does one lead a route without difficulty but no send? 

Ego.

Rita Shhhwrote:

Recently, I went to a sport climbing crag that has only a handful of routes. Upon arriving, I noticed someone was half way up the route, which I specifically wanted to try, and was obviously struggling since she was stick clipping her way up through the "difficult" moves. When my partner and I finally arrived, I asked if it would be ok if I could climb on the route. She agreed but with the condition that her rope be on top rope. So my second question was whether then I could climb on HER rope. I sensed that she was uncomfortable with that which is understandable, and so I just proceeded to tie into my own rope and lead the route- I lead it without difficulty but no send. Afterwards, my partner had to second, even though he wanted to lead it too, but we decided it was best for my partner to TR and trail the lady's rope so she can have her rope on TR. I'll admit it was super annoying. She kept her rope on the route for the rest of her session and continued to struggle on the route. The situation deterred me from wanting to try again for the redpoint because I didn't want to deal with all the shenanigans again.

So my question is what is the etiquette for this scenario? Who has the right of way: the person who's draws are on the route or the person who can lead the route or other and how do you communicate this or does it even have to be?! I feel like it's common sense to let a climber use your rope if you want it on top rope so bad. Thoughts?

Share all gear absolutely and after 3 falls/hangs you're done.