Buckskin Gulch Carabiner & Rope Thief

"Great idea! Somehow I must have left my pen, paper and tape back in my office desk drawer though. Do you usually pack  those items with you when you are putting up first ascents? "

I'm actually surprised you didn't say you were setting new routes.

Robert P wrote:

No, it's a privilege. Rights are guaranteed,  the privilege to climb can be revoked at any time by those that manage the land. If it's private land no reasons need to be given; if it's public land, I think a reasonable justification would be warranted - but the rules will vary depending on who manages the land (BLM, NPS, county, state or other local authorities).

We are talking about painting chains that have been hanging in the same place for 30 years on BLM land, where bolting sport routes is perfectly acceptable, in a canyon that is seldom visited by anyone. Including climbers. What we have here are people trolling me and the judgmental seizing the opportunity to judge. Do you think that not painting anchors is "reasonable justification" for banning climbing in an area that allows off roading and dispersed camping? 

M Montoya · 3 hours ago · Maine, NH, VT · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 1 

I'm actually surprised you didn't say you were setting new routes. 

1/10

As a guy who doesn't weigh into the forums much, holy shit. Comparing climbers' "rights" to the plight of women is maybe the most tone-deaf bullshit I've read on here in a while. Face-palm, face-palm, face-palm. Anyway, the BLM has banned artificial anchors in other areas and they could do it in Buttskins Gulch too. Don't assume that our permanent intrusions are always welcome, justified, or strictly legal. Permanent anchors on public lands have frequently lived in a regulatory gray area and it has been the unwritten code of route developers to keep visibility low for all our sakes. If you're feeling backed into a corner here maybe it's because you've been taking things for granted that actually aren't. But seriously, stfu about how your rights to spray bolts wherever tf you want is even close to equivalent to a woman's right to choose if she wants to grow a life inside her. Face-palm, face-palm, face-palm.

What we have here are people trolling me and the judgmental seizing the opportunity to judge.

True you are being trolled. I was not one of them however. I was simply curious if perhaps hikers had nabbed your gear instead of climbers. Some of them would-be canyoneers are sort of rabid about fixed gear. You answered, we're good. You said the routes went in back in the 90s, I did the Buckskin in like 93 of 94 I'd guess. I can only imagine what the traffic is like now. Back then, we didn't see a soul till we reached the Paria.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

True you are being trolled. I was not one of them however. I was simply curious if perhaps hikers had nabbed your hear instead of climbers. Some of them would-be canyoneers are sort of rabid about fixed gear. You answered, we're good. You said the routes went in back in the 90s, I did the Buckskin in like 93 of 94 I'd guess. I can only imagine what the traffic is like now. Back then, we didn't see a soul till we reached the Paria.

After that we saw nobody for 40 miles or so to the ferry. I'm actually sorta surprised people are "FAing"/bolting in the middle of nowhere. 

Why do you continue to leave unsecured aluminum carabiners on the chains?  Do you find that it makes that much of a difference over threading the rope to clean?

Matt Selmanwrote:

As a guy who doesn't weigh into the forums much, holy shit. Comparing climbers' "rights" to the plight of women is maybe the most tone-deaf bullshit I've read on here in a while. Face-palm, face-palm, face-palm. Anyway, the BLM has banned artificial anchors in other areas and they could do it in Buttskins Gulch too. Don't assume that our permanent intrusions are always welcome, justified, or strictly legal. Permanent anchors on public lands have frequently lived in a regulatory gray area and it has been the unwritten code of route developers to keep visibility low for all our sakes. If you're feeling backed into a corner here maybe it's because you've been taking things for granted that actually aren't. But seriously, stfu about how your rights to spray bolts wherever tf you want is even close to equivalent to a woman's right to choose if she wants to grow a life inside her. Face-palm, face-palm, face-palm.

My point was that just because a law is made doesn't change the fact that it is still a right. I was not comparing the two in any way and I am in fact very much for a woman's right to choose and find the Texas law repugnant.  I deleted the comment as to avoid further misinterpretations and triggerings. I didn't mean to offend in any way and should have thought it through a little more before posting.  

"Permanent intrusions" funny!!    "Unwritten code" that is equally hilarious. Who's unwritten code are you talking about? Shall I include more photos of destination sport crags and their fixed draws for reference as what "unwritten code" looks like and what is considered "low visibility"?

I don't feel backed into a corner whatsoever.  I feel like I am being trolled by judgmental keyboard warriors.

 "Buttskins"  very mature!     

Robert P · 28 mins ago · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2018 · Points: 5 

With that said, I just think this belief that climbing is a right is misguided and potentially leads to negative impacts for access. 

I think climbing is my right, you and others think it is a privilege bestowed upon you by the government.  This is a topic that has been argued in the climbing world forever. We will have to agree to disagree on that and I have no desire to debate the topic without a beer and a campfire. Let's keep this in perspective.  We are talking about putting camouflage on chains in a 30 year old, chossy , 2 star, sport climbing area on BLM land, that sees very little traffic.  So far the only complaints about those chains are coming from people who have never been to the area. As of yet, I have never received a complaint about them in all of these decades until I asked for assistance in finding a thief. What I have seen is many people happily lowering and TRing off those chains that I put there specifically for them to use.  

shredward · 18 mins ago · SLC · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 5

It makes a world of difference.  Clip, Clip, "ON YOU" and lower --- As opposed to; Clip, clip, untie, thread rope, retie, unclip, unclip, "ON YOU" and lower.  It especially makes sense for beginners. I don't even climb the routes that people are giving me shit about.  I put those TR chains and and carabiners there solely for the enjoyment of others at a significant cost to myself. 

But taking all the lowering carabiners off the chains and leaving them bare and saying screw it is making a lot more sense. Actually deleting the whole area off of MP is starting to bounce around in my head.  

ALRIGHT FINE!!!!  I'll camouflage the chains and hangers!! You win!!  What could it hurt right?  I don't want any issues with the man or confrontation with bolting Karens.  It's going to take some time but I plan on painting the hardware as Fritz has suggested upthread.  The funny thing is that a vast majority of my climbing life has been spent  putting up FA's in a traditional style or bouldering cleanly. It's weird for me to be getting this kind of shit.  https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119911393/the-glen-canyon-challenge

Kyran Keislingwrote:

ALRIGHT FINE!!!!  I'll camouflage the chains and hangers!! You win!!  What could it hurt right?  I don't want any issues with the man or confrontation with bolting Karens.  It's going to take some time but I plan on painting the hardware as Fritz has suggested upthread.  The funny thing is that a vast majority of my climbing life has been spent  putting up FA's in a traditional style or bouldering cleanly. It's weird for me to be getting this kind of shit.  https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119911393/the-glen-canyon-challenge

And maybe add these for lowering? Will be harder to steal. I think they're called "Mussy hooks".

Plus one on the Mussy hooks. Check with ASCA, these are going in at a lot of places, now, even obscure stuff.

As to camo or not, and bolting?

BLM can, and has, "changed their mind" in areas that had bolts in for decades. In fact, climbing access is facing issues in most places near me. It's suddenly the "rule", not the norm, so?

Thanks for doing the work at all, truly!

But remember, this isn't 40 years ago. Anyone who develops now, simply has to think about the next forty years. Unless you're on private land, you are most definitely being granted something that could be taken away, for all of us.

Be discrete, think long-term, aim for best practice for your area.

And really, ask ASCA!! That's how someone like me can help fund someone like you, even if I never climb anywhere near where you do your stuff. 

Any of you who read this, and have opinions about hardware? Pony up and get some money to ASCA, eh?

Best, Helen

Kyran Keislingwrote:

Climbing is my right, not a privilege.  Installing hardware for climbing on public land is an accepted practice.  Did you look at the final two pictures in my last comment?  Those are both from destination areas.  What duty did the developers there have to keep their hardware on the DL and who would be enforcing that duty? .....the climbing community?

 I was fully aware that my rope could be yanked by an asshole. The only reason I brought up the rope was in hopes that it could be used as a way to possibly catch the thief. It's the theft of the lowering carabiners that pisses me off.  I am fairly certain somebody is doing it on purpose and they know exactly what they are doing.  

I don't think climbing is your "right" unless you own the land you're on. Like, you yourself. Not the general public. 

Kyran Keislingwrote:

ALRIGHT FINE!!!!  I'll camouflage the chains and hangers!! You win!!  What could it hurt right?  I don't want any issues with the man or confrontation with bolting Karens.  It's going to take some time but I plan on painting the hardware as Fritz has suggested upthread.  The funny thing is that a vast majority of my climbing life has been spent  putting up FA's in a traditional style or bouldering cleanly. It's weird for me to be getting this kind of shit.  https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119911393/the-glen-canyon-challenge

Its weird that you haven't figured out in all of your years of "FAing" that whatever is not bolted down tends to walk away. Have you missed all the past 1000 threads of people having gear go missing? Personally I am all for anchors being less convenient, cleaning and threading anchors is a good skill for n00bs to learn and it tends to keep the anchors in better shape which also lowers costs considerably. You put yourself out there for opinions, don't whine about it.

M Mwrote:

Its weird that you haven't figured out in all of your years of "FAing" that whatever is not bolted down tends to walk away. Have you missed all the past 1000 threads of people having gear go missing? Personally I am all for anchors being less convenient, cleaning and threading anchors is a good skill for n00bs to learn and it tends to keep the anchors in better shape which also lowers costs considerably. You put yourself out there for opinions, don't whine about it.

0/10

Did you make yourself feel better by posting this? You need a hug. 

Kyran Keislingwrote:

You need a hug. 

Kyran Keislingwrote:

0/10

Did you make yourself feel better by posting this? You need a hug. 

I'm sorry your feelings got hurt if it matters.

Old lady Hwrote:

Plus one on the Mussy hooks. Check with ASCA, these are going in at a lot of places, now, even obscure stuff.

As to camo or not, and bolting?

BLM can, and has, "changed their mind" in areas that had bolts in for decades. In fact, climbing access is facing issues in most places near me. It's suddenly the "rule", not the norm, so?

Thanks for doing the work at all, truly!

But remember, this isn't 40 years ago. Anyone who develops now, simply has to think about the next forty years. Unless you're on private land, you are most definitely being granted something that could be taken away, for all of us.

Be discrete, think long-term, aim for best practice for your area.

And really, ask ASCA!! That's how someone like me can help fund someone like you, even if I never climb anywhere near where you do your stuff. 

Any of you who read this, and have opinions about hardware? Pony up and get some money to ASCA, eh?

Best, Helen

The hooks seem like they would be a good idea installed with a quick link with lock tight on the threads. 

I think what I have learned about discretion is that putting this area on MP and then posting this topic was a huge mistakes.  If the government comes and makes a law prohibiting my right to climb there it will be because of climbers and not other user groups. Climbers that I invited and was hospitable to through my work. I am in the rabbit hole and I am there because of my own doing. 

I appreciate the offer of funding, but I prefer to do it on my own dime and in my own style. I seriously don't see the point of putting cammo on the anchors, to me it's like putting lipstick on a pig or polishing a turd.  It reminds of when my wrestlers were required to wear a Covid mask WHILE they wrestled.  But why fight it?  If it will keep people off of my back then what's the harm.  

This will be my last comment on this thread.  If you would like to discuss something with me you can message me. Thanks again to those who have been constructive and supportive.   

Kyran Keislingwrote:

The hooks seem like they would be a good idea installed with a quick link with lock tight on the threads. 

I think what I have learned about discretion is that putting this area on MP and then posting this topic was a huge mistakes.  If the government comes and makes a law prohibiting my right to climb there it will be because of climbers and not other user groups. Climbers that I invited and was hospitable to through my work. I am in the rabbit hole and I am there because of my own doing. 

I appreciate the offer of funding, but I prefer to do it on my own dime and in my own style. I seriously don't see the point of putting cammo on the anchors, to me it's like putting lipstick on a pig or polishing a turd.  It reminds of when my wrestlers were required to wear a Covid mask WHILE they wrestled.  But why fight it?  If it will keep people off of my back then what's the harm.  

This will be my last comment on this thread.  If you would like to discuss something with me you can message me. Thanks again to those who have been constructive and supportive.   

Here, anchors were all painted, as it's right by a road, bike path, and trail. It's largely BLM land....but also F&G has a WMA. All was fine, for many decades. Until some (probably new to the area) yahoo did their own thing, adding shiny new anchors where they never existed, and, in the kind of sensitive WMA. 

That, and other things, got the attention of the feds, and now ALL hardware is on hold....."for study".

Then there's Massacre Rocks, City of Rocks, Leslie Gulch....

You're thread, and posts, are seen (and read) by many more than the few who bother to participate. So, thanks again for your work out there, but also?

This thread helps others, too. Now, and however far down the road someone else sees it. Maybe someone else will hit the "pause" button, somewhere, and that just might matter.... some day down the road?

We never are the only ones involved with any of this.

Best, Helen

Kyran Keislingwrote:

The hooks seem like they would be a good idea installed with a quick link with lock tight on the threads. 

I think what I have learned about discretion is that putting this area on MP and then posting this topic was a huge mistakes.  If the government comes and makes a law prohibiting my right to climb there it will be because of climbers and not other user groups. Climbers that I invited and was hospitable to through my work. I am in the rabbit hole and I am there because of my own doing. 

I appreciate the offer of funding, but I prefer to do it on my own dime and in my own style. I seriously don't see the point of putting cammo on the anchors, to me it's like putting lipstick on a pig or polishing a turd.  It reminds of when my wrestlers were required to wear a Covid mask WHILE they wrestled.  But why fight it?  If it will keep people off of my back then what's the harm.  

This will be my last comment on this thread.  If you would like to discuss something with me you can message me. Thanks again to those who have been constructive and supportive.   

You're welcome. 

Cammo is an act of good faith. 

Godspeed and do let us know if the thief is revealed.

Have not gone through many of the replies so maybe this has already been mentioned. Get rid of all that chain, move the anchor down over the lip and install perma steel biners.