Buckskin Gulch Carabiner & Rope Thief

I know this is a long shot but I have to try because it is pissing me off.  About a dozen lowering carabiners have been stolen off of the chains of the moderate routes on the Carrot Buttress https://www.mountainproject.com/area/116685411/carrot-buttress over the past year. Also, my lime green dynamic rope was stolen off of a project further down on the Farallon del Panzon wall last spring. I am not sure if all the disappearances are related but I do suspect someone local. Here are pictures of the carabiners on another route that haven't been jacked yet. They are Petzl. If you see someone that has single orange Petzl bent gates on their harness and you know they have been to the Gulch would you please interrogate them, and if they are guilty, wrestle them down, put them in a submission hold and take the gear back. You can have it if you want, just please email me pictures and the story of the beatdown. 

The lime green dynamic rope was on the thicker side and was starting to fade.  It was starting to get old but had some life left in it and I would like to get it back on principle alone.  

Sorry about your gear, it might help to paint everything and disguise it better. If its accessible by the top, it could be someone mad about the bright colors or it could be someone mistaking the carabiners for being left behind (painting chains and carabiners could solve this). Just a thought. 

As someone who has equipped routes with lowering biners and had them jacked, I get it. Two zipties flanking the biner helps prevent this. 

Bolting Karen wrote:

Sorry about your gear, it might help to paint everything and disguise it better. If its accessible by the top, it could be someone mad about the bright colors or it could be someone mistaking the carabiners for being left behind (painting chains and carabiners could solve this). Just a thought. 

Painting could help for sure but I just shouldn't have to, on principal.  Many of the stolen carabiners (several were scuffed matte silver & not bright) were in places that involve more than just grabbing the chains from the top, which would lead me to believe, that it is a climber who is taking them and a climber would know those carabiners were there for the community. All speculative of course. The easiest solution would be to not replace them and leave it like it was in the old days when we came off of belay and untied.    

Kyran Keisling wrote:

which would lead me to believe, that it is a climber who is taking them and a climber would know those carabiners were there for the community.

It sucks that people are taking those biners. Putting zip ties around them is a good idea. From the picture, those biners look just like regular aluminum biners on someone's rack. Maybe some climbers think they're bail biners. I personally wouldn't take them, in fact I've replaced worn out biners on anchors with steel ones. But I've definitely climbed with people who said, "looks like someone didn't know how to clean the anchor and left some biners behind!" and took biners off anchors.

Julian H wrote:

Maybe some thinks it is trush and picks then up after you. Did you left the rope on a climb and left? In that case it is not stolen. 

You should leave the old carabiners at the top of the climb, stuff that no one wants to steal. Shiny stuff will always disappear. 

I left the rope for a couple of days on a route that I was actively equipping with approximately $75 worth of bolts/hangers and $40 worth of chain/quick links, $8 worth of carabiners and multiple days of sweat.  The chains of this particular route were not on the top of the cliff, so accessing them to get a top rope set up to properly suss out bolt placement and properly clean it was very time consuming.... so I left the rope there until I could return a few days later. So yeah, discarded trash that I lazily left for a good Samaritan to clean up. Thanks for straightening me out on that.     

aikibujin wrote:

It sucks that people are taking those biners. Putting zip ties around them is a good idea. From the picture, those biners look just like regular aluminum biners on someone's rack. Maybe some climbers think they're bail biners. I personally wouldn't take them, in fact I've replaced worn out biners on anchors with steel ones. But I've definitely climbed with people who said, "looks like someone didn't know how to clean the anchor and left some biners behind!" and took biners off anchors.

Thank you and Fritz for the zip tie idea.  I was thinking about a hose clamp and then lock tight on the threads???  Any thoughts?

The thing is, is that on the Home Page and the Route Page here on MP it says in bold, to not steal them. And the only place one could find out how get here would be through MP Page (it is in no guidebooks). Remember this is a chronic thing that has happened over the last year and a half. If they were honestly oblivious, it would mean they have been saying....."looks like someone doesn't know how to clean an anchor on this same climb over and over again." 

That anchor is an eyesore.  

Kyran Keisling wrote:

Thank you and Fritz for the zip tie idea.  I was thinking about a hose clamp and then lock tight on the threads???  Any thoughts?

If someone is out to steal lowering biners, then no amount of zip ties and hose clamp will stop them. Maybe you can try the hose clamp on a couple of routes and see what happens. If people are still stealing them, then I guess people will have to go back to threading the anchor to clean. Another things to try is to get some steel biners, they will last longer as lowering biners anyway, and they are heavy enough that I don't see anyone wanting to steal a whole rack of them to climb on. I usually keep my eyes on the Petzl Djinn steel biners on sale. They come in pack of 10, and when you get them on sale they will be $6 or $7 per biner, cost about the same as aluminum biners and will last much longer. You can also find steel biners with captive pin to prevent theft, but they are generally more expensive.

https://www.gearexpress.com/petzl-djinn-steel-bentgate-carabiner-10-pack.html

Kyran Keisling wrote:

I know this is a long shot but I have to try because it is pissing me off.  About a dozen lowering carabiners have been stolen off of the chains of the moderate routes on the Carrot Buttress https://www.mountainproject.com/area/116685411/carrot-buttress over the past year. Also, my lime green dynamic rope was stolen off of a project further down on the Farallon del Panzon wall last spring. I am not sure if all the disappearances are related but I do suspect someone local. Here are pictures of the carabiners on another route that haven't been jacked yet. They are Petzl. If you see someone that has single orange Petzl bent gates on their harness and you know they have been to the Gulch would you please interrogate them, and if they are guilty, wrestle them down, put them in a submission hold and take the gear back. You can have it if you want, just please email me pictures and the story of the beatdown. 

The lime green dynamic rope was on the thicker side and was starting to fade.  It was starting to get old but had some life left in it and I would like to get it back on principle alone.  

Did you leave a note on the rope that you would be back for it in a few days? If not how would people know it's not abandoned? It's kinda like the fridge at your workplace, label your stuff!

Use steel biners with an anti-theft bar on them. Regular aluminum biners can be used for someone's rack. Aside from route development, nobody wants to rack up with steel biners cause they're so damn heavy. Like this:

Question: Canyon hikers walking down the gulch wouldn't see these anchors? Or would they?

Kyran Keisling wrote:

Painting could help for sure but I just shouldn't have to, on principal.  Many of the stolen carabiners (several were scuffed matte silver & not bright) were in places that involve more than just grabbing the chains from the top, which would lead me to believe, that it is a climber who is taking them and a climber would know those carabiners were there for the community. All speculative of course. The easiest solution would be to not replace them and leave it like it was in the old days when we came off of belay and untied.    

I respectfully disagree that we should be painting our anchors on principle to make them somewhat less obvious to other user groups but I'm not familiar with the crag, user groups, or the ethics in your area. Regardless, stolen gear is not ok.

Buckskin gulch is one of the most famous hikes on the planet so for me its easy to see a worn out old green rope getting taken. The biners on top is another story.

While the routes are in Buckskin Gulch which is some 25 miles long, they are not in the part of Buckskin Gulch that gets tourists hiking in it.

My suggestion is if you want to clip and lower is to put in specific anchors for that. The top anchor hook costs as much a carabiner. Further, do some camo work on the chains.

Thanks to those of you who have offered understanding and advice about how to thwart the thievery.  I appreciate it.  

Randy Vannurden · 22 hours ago · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0

    That anchor is an eyesore.  

Can you please provide a link to a climb you have put on MP and a picture of the superior anchor you put on it; Specifically and selflessly to allow beginners to easily set up a top rope. I haven’t personally climbed the route in the picture of the chains in years.  

It’s funny because when I started developing the Gulch back in the early 90’s you could just hike the Paria and go to the Wave without a permit and anyone you might run across was a hunter or cowboy.  Now there are big ol' bathrooms, huge parking lots, an expensive permit system, cops, rangers, fancy shiny city cars and equally shiny city people, trash, trash, trash, dog and people shit squeezed out right next to the big bathrooms. But yeah, my chains are an eyesore and we better try to hide them from the eyes of those shiny people lest they complain to the folks who charge the fees to use the giant bathrooms next to the giant parking lots.    

I have only seen a few hikers on this section of the Buckskin.  Yes, you can see the anchors if you look closely but the height of the cliff, the colors of the rock and the situation of the canyon make them discrete.(see the below photo)  It would take some work for a hiker to get to the chains and take the carabiners.  The rope on the other hand could have easily been taken by a hiker.  In fact, that is probably who it was and it has nothing to do with the chains carabiners. 

 F r i t z · 4 hours ago · The Western Slope · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 320

Tristan Hamm took them. After E-biking to the top of the Craig. #yolo

He needed them for his inspirational stoke project in Sedona Utah…. Which is just down the road from the Gulch you know. 

Clayton Knudson · 1 hour ago · Moab, UT · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 35

 I respectfully disagree that we should be painting our anchors on principle to make them somewhat less obvious to other user groups but I'm not familiar with the crag, user groups, or the ethics in your area. Regardless, stolen gear is not ok.

It is a crag on BLM land, tucked away from view. It sees very little traffic from other user groups. The climbing community is very small in this area and those chains are fine and comply with the local ethic. I can admit that the orange carabiners are a bit much but we bought them specifically to try and catch the thief.  The two you see in the picture are the only ones left and all the rest at the crag are a muted gray steel and some that are aluminum. 

M Montoya · 1 hour ago · Maine, NH, VT · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 1

Buckskin gulch is one of the most famous hikes on the planet so for me its easy to see a worn out old green rope getting taken. The biners on top is another story

If my rope was hanging in the world famous part of the Gulch and not in the scrubby wide part that nobody visits  then maybe your comment would have a bit of merit to it. I am not really surprised my rope was taken.  I was very aware that it was risky leaving it there.  

Matt S · 20 hours ago · Palmer Lake, CO · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 82

Use steel biners with an anti-theft bar on them. Regular aluminum biners can be used for someone's rack. Aside from route development, nobody wants to rack up with steel biners cause they're so damn heavy. Like this:

Thanks Matt, those look nice!  PRICEY THOUGH!! We had a donor send some steel carabiners and they are really good.  I think it’s a good idea to spend the extra money to go steel.  Although, just leaving the chains bare is something that is becoming more alluring. I am starting to agree with aikibujin and others who are saying that lowering carabiners will never stay on moderate routes.  

Holy crap!!  Queue the bolt Karens of MP!!!  I posted this to try and catch a thief and not for bolting advice.  There is a reason I climb so far away from your judgement.  Save it for the routes and crags you develop. In the below picture of the Swoop Wall there are 10 sets of chains and approximately 100 unpainted hangers. Can you see them?  Neither can I.  I have included a few photos of destination areas for reference as to what is accepted as correct before you tell me how I am "doing it wrong".  

null

Allen Sanderson wrote:do some camo work on the chains.

+1 for camo, regardless of location. Shiny bolts are an eyesore that impact all user groups.

Methods I've used:

- matte spraypaint (on the ground first)

- spraypainting my existing, un-camo'd bolts with a cardboard cutout to protect the rock

- brown Sharpie

- climbing tape

- Dishwasher cycle then air-dry outside to allow for a small amount of oxidization. (Best in dry climates where rust doesn't run rampant).

And to echo previous posters, steel witegates with captive eye pin (requiring a 2mm hex key to remove) are utterly righteous. I put two dozen of them atop popular routes at a very noisy and assclown-theft-prone Craig six years ago and they're still there. 

Kyran Keisling wrote:

Thanks to those of you who have offered understanding and advice about how to thwart the thievery.  I appreciate it.  

Randy Vannurden · 22 hours ago · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 0

    That anchor is an eyesore.  

Can you please provide a link to a climb you have put on MP and a picture of the superior anchor you put on it; Specifically and selflessly to allow beginners to easily set up a top rope. I haven’t personally climbed the route in the picture of the chains in years.  

It’s funny because when I started developing the Gulch back in the early 90’s you could just hike the Paria and go to the Wave without a permit and anyone you might run across was a hunter or cowboy.  Now there are big ol' bathrooms, huge parking lots, an expensive permit system, cops, rangers, fancy shiny city cars and equally shiny city people, trash, trash, trash, dog and people shit squeezed out right next to the big bathrooms. But yeah, my chains are an eyesore and we better try to hide them from the eyes of those shiny people lest they complain to the folks who charge the fees to use the giant bathrooms next to the giant parking lots.    

It's the developers duty to keep hardware on the DL. It's a privilege to climb, let alone installing hardware for climbing, so best practice is to hide the hardware as much as possible.

Great idea! Somehow I must have left my pen, paper and tape back in my office desk drawer though. Do you usually pack  those items with you when you are putting up first ascents?  

How is a rope “abandoned” if one can tug lightly on one end and it slides gently through the chains to the ground?

 Is it like food in the office fridge or more like the paper towel dispenser in the bathroom? 

Yes, I carry a small pad of paper and pen with me in my crag pack. You could also have a premade note that you attach to your stuff if need be.

No, it's not obvious what's going on with gear that's just left out at the crag. People leave behind gear for many reasons, alot of time they just forgot it. So, if I were you I would take steps to communicate why the gear has been left up or better yet don't leave it behind at all.

I have had a few anchors, biners, etc of mine taken as well but it's my fault for not securing or hiding that gear. It's just the cost of doing business.

"No, it's not obvious what's going on"

When lowering biners or quicklinks are left on the anchor/chains at the top of a pitch, the reason is obvious to climbers.  They are meant for lowering or decending.  They are obviously not not obvious.

I wonder if you could drill out some old fat ovals to add that type of keeper pin/bar.  And engrave the spine or gate.

Tradiban wrote:

It's the developers duty to keep hardware on the DL. It's a privilege to climb, let alone installing hardware for climbing, so best practice is to hide the hardware as much as possible.

Yes, I carry a small pad of paper and pen with me in my crag pack. You could also have a premade note that you attach to your stuff if need be.

No, it's not obvious what's going on with gear that's just left out at the crag. People leave behind gear for many reasons, alot of time they just forgot it. So, if I were you I would take steps to communicate why the gear has been left up or better yet don't leave it behind at all.

I have had a few anchors, biners, etc of mine taken as well but it's my fault for not securing or hiding that gear. It's just the cost of doing business.

Climbing is my right, not a privilege.  Installing hardware for climbing on public land is an accepted practice.  Did you look at the final two pictures in my last comment?  Those are both from destination areas.  What duty did the developers there have to keep their hardware on the DL and who would be enforcing that duty? .....the climbing community?

 I was fully aware that my rope could be yanked by an asshole. The only reason I brought up the rope was in hopes that it could be used as a way to possibly catch the thief. It's the theft of the lowering carabiners that pisses me off.  I am fairly certain somebody is doing it on purpose and they know exactly what they are doing.  

Kyran Keisling wrote:

Climbing is my right, not a privilege.  Installing hardware for climbing on public land is an accepted practice.  Did you look at the final two pictures in my last comment?  Those are both from destination areas.  What duty did the developers there have to keep their hardware on the DL and who would be enforcing that duty? .....the climbing community?

I'm just saying it's a good idea to camo your stuff, it makes us look better in the eyes of the general public. 

 I was fully aware that my rope could be yanked by an asshole. The only reason I brought up the rope was in hopes that it could be used as a way to possibly catch the thief. It's the theft of the lowering carabiners that pisses me off.  I am fairly certain somebody is doing it on purpose and they know exactly what they are doing.  

Right or wrong unsecured gear is going to occasionally get taken, so secure it if it really matters to you and don't leave anything behind that you can't live without.

Your confrontation of the "thief" will likely embolden them further and you certainly won't be changing their mind.