New Bolts on the Nose, El Capitan: one 60m rope rapping from Sickle and Dolt

C Brooks wrote: Why are you assuming that the conclusions drawn from this data would be translatable to a rap route on El cap? I seriously question the similarity between mass transit and a rap route.

Well, certainly that exact study hasn't been done but human crowd and travel behavior is well studied. Stadiums and traffic have been well studied. There probably is nothing exceptional about rock climbing routes in this regard.

Turns out a stadium crowd behaves nearly identically to water flow as the stadium empties out. Sharp turns and constrictions cause behavior of human "individuals" to be actually remarkably similar to water, with eddies and bottlenecks, pressure release (an exit) leading to faster flow and random dispersion when released etc.

What happens in this case is the same on any other route humans use. Multiple parties show up and when confronted with those ahead rapping on top of them choose something else, in some measure. Instead, with a separate alternate route down they all head up, thinking they can then handle the increased congestion with minimal inconvenience, increasing overall traffic.

A link to the traffic study is in a post above.

Erik Sloan wrote:Bill Lawry - I have lived and worked in Yosemite since 2002, and have spent much, much more in just money (not the hundreds of hours volunteered) on bolts, bits, hangers, website, adobe products, etc. than I will ever make off selling a guidebook. Anyone who has made a guidebook can attest to this, total labor of love.

Sounds like you are "in the red" on this one. Even so, the commercial link at the end of your posts plus the extreme hype tend to appear from a salesman with something financial to gain - regardless of being in the red or in the black.

But I can set the $$ aspect aside. Text is very limited in terms of conveying real intent. And your message above seems to assert $$ is in no way behind your efforts.

I have had a personal experience with my own climbing-related "labor of love" in a public setting (am not talking about bolting). Because my personal motivation was so high, it was easy to fall into an assumption like "Well of course the majority thinks the same way." Cost me years of mostly wasted effort, and I lost some good people as close friends. But in a generation or so, all about it will be erased from the face of the earth.

It appears you have fallen into such an assumption. I am not aware of your regularly doing the hard work of including the community in on these non-trivial decisions before acting. And sometimes the community won't have an answer. And that is ok because these kinds of decisions reach out beyond your and my lifetime.

What bothers me about this thread--and I'm just a bystander with no connection to Yosemite climbing--is that Mr. Sloan is proceeding with permanent changes despite the appearance that the community of climbers has not reached consensus in support of doing so. He seems unwilling to hear dissent, and dismissive of the dissent he hears. I've seen a lot of dissent here and little or no support. The disrespectful and dismissive tone of his posts is not helped by the "woots," which suggest to me an attitude of reckless disregard. A little humility is perhaps warranted.

Note: the above bold portion is edited in response to comments below to better reflect what my intended statement was.

n00b wrote:...the fact that the community of climbers has not reached even a slight consensus in support of doing so.

Woots having been taken care of, how do you know that "even a slight consensus" hasn't been reached? You do realize, that the few people expressing opinions here on mp.com or supertopo can present just the tiniest fraction of climbers, and they should not be used as a measure of consensus.
Just the mere fact that Mr. Sloan continues retro/bolting shows that most people approve of his work. Otherwise, as "Assault On El Capitan" implies, his bolting equipment would be vandalized and covered in shit. If the "Assault On El Capitan" reference confuses you, you should watch it and consider effects of group-think in small group context.
Woot! Woot!

n00b wrote: Mr. Sloan appears to be proceeding with permanent changes despite the fact that the community of climbers has not reached even a slight consensus in support of doing so.

Let me re-word the above sentence to more accurately convey my thoughts on the matter:

...Mr. Sloan is proceeding with permanent changes despite the appearance that the community of climbers has not reached consensus...

With that amendment in mind, I might of course be entirely off-base. As I said, I'm not a local and just a remote observer. But I hear a lot of dissent and condemnation and little support on MP. Maybe the folks posting here are a fringe group, but it seems more likely they're representative. If the appearance of broad disagreement is wrong, then my reservations are unfounded.

If we proceeded in our sport based on consensus, then there would be no sport climbing, bouldering, cams, sticky rubber, etc. Every time someone does something new, there is a large group of climbers who cry foul.

All he did was modify an existing rappel route. Honestly, reading this thread you would think he had bolted climbing hold onto the wall or something.
Yes he permanently modified the wall, so did whoever drilled the original rappel route, so did Warren Harding when he did the FA.

C Brooks wrote:If we proceeded in our sport based on consensus, then there would be no sport climbing, bouldering, cams, sticky rubber, etc. Every time someone does something new, there is a large group of climbers who cry foul.

The generally accepted standard for modifying a crag is "local ethics," and local ethics are defined by a general consensus, not a perfect one.

I'm not sensing (from my remote perch behind a keyboard) a general consensus that this permanent change was needed or desired, and so it seems like it should not have happened. I am sensing a lot of dissension, meaning changes should be approached conservatively.

As noted, my view is quite remote from the center of the action. But to the extent an MP thread is a proxy for the community, there's clearly a lot more dialogue that needed to occur before irreversible choices were made.

C Brooks wrote:If we proceeded in our sport based on consensus, then there would be no sport climbing, bouldering, cams, sticky rubber, etc. Every time someone does something new, there is a large group of climbers who cry foul. All he did was modify an existing rappel route. Honestly, reading this thread you would think he had bolted climbing hold onto the wall or something. Yes he permanently modified the wall, so did whoever drilled the original rappel route, so did Warren Harding when he did the FA.

No, Erik Sloan has a history of placing bolt ladders to eliminate crux pitches on historic routes as documented in this thread (ie Great Slab). That is effectively bolting on holds.

He is a self promoter that, lacking any true vision, has set himself up as a self-styled "fixer" of established routes, adding bolts where the climbing is not to his ability or willy-nilly for his convenience and guidebook sales.

All of the above attempted comparisons in your post fall short as consensus did eventually emerge that those innovations were legitimate climbing activities. Adding bolt ladders to get around A4 nailing put up by Kor, Madsen and Schimdtz is condemned by anyone with an understanding of the issues.

To let these convenience bolts pass by someone with a history of unethical behavior is to encourage more abominations.

Erik is welcome to bolt up a storm on his own First Ascents but should keep the hell off established climbs with his bolt gun as he has shown a complete lack of responsibility placing bolts.

I guess what I don't understand about this issue is why Erik doesn't just concentrate on replacing aging hardware? Once he's done with that, then go out to the community and showcase that work and propose new rap stations. My experience in yosemite has been that most first ascensionists are pysched for new people to replace the aging hardware on their routes, and really dislike people adding new hardware.

As someone who has had to bail from (above) Dolt before, my limited view on the matter is that it's not that inconvenient to do double rope raps. We brought a tagline with us, a little 6 mil coiled up in a bullet pack, and took it out only when it was time to rap. We weren't trying to break any records, so a few extra pounds were worth knowing that we could bail without leaving a bunch of gear. In fact, the rap was pretty straightforward, except for the penji at the bottom of the stovelegs, and I am very glad that were able to do double raps instead of singles.

I've been thinking about this for a few months. As a regular yosemite climber, and a sporadic mountain project user, I do not support this effort to add rap stations to the existing rap route on the nose. but nobody asked me, i just wanted to put that out there. you will not be getting any green gummy bears from me sir.

Erik Sloan wrote:Well, at least we agree to disagree. I appreciate all the comments here, and from the many who have emailed me (some folks have emailed for the updated Nose topo). Bill Lawry - I have lived and worked in Yosemite since 2002, and have spent much, much more in just money (not the hundreds of hours volunteered) on bolts, bits, hangers, website, adobe products, etc. than I will ever make off selling a guidebook. Anyone who has made a guidebook can attest to this, total labor of love. Moof - first I've heard of anyone cleaning off a ledge on MC. I stayed there a couple years back with six other friends - definitely wasn't us. Do you have pics? I don't use a power drill in Yosemite - everyone knows that that is illegal. Sure got a good laugh last year, though, when I ran into Ron Skelton, 75 year old crusher/pioneer that still lives in El Portal and leads 5.11, and he started telling me about how he put up all the routes on Parkline and elsewhere with a powerdrill that he had rigged so the battery was in a super small backpack, like an early version of a camelback, and how he could just climb up and put in bolts really easily - sorry to pull the photoshop layers off your fantasy about the old guys, there KT ;) What would folks like to see in a mini-guide to the Nose? Woot! Erik

Want to fess up to the added pitch 3 anchor bolt, or deny that too? Both happened about the time of your conga line up the thing.

Was this ever completed? I.e do you now only need a 60 to get down from dolt?

Hamid Aghdaeewrote:

Was this ever completed? I.e do you now only need a 60 to get down from dolt?

One 70m will get you down from Dolt in 16 single-rope raps according to Sloan's topo in his new Ultimate bigwall guide

Hamid Aghdaeewrote:

Was this ever completed? I.e do you now only need a 60 to get down from dolt?

the ease of using only the good rap stations is a benefit that I can't bring myself to give up, in order to save 4.5lbs of 5mm tag line in the follower pack. If that's what's keeping me from sending or climbing efficiently... I need to eat less donuts. 

Also, I thought I recall an acquaintance mentioning in another thread that they needed some shenanigans w/ a 70 (from dolt), and that an 80 (or chopped 80, say a 74+m cord) would have made life easier. Perhaps Austin will chime in on this thread...

Folks are rapping from Dolt with one 70. I haven't yet. I set up the raps with one 60 from the pitch 6 anchor down, just used them the other day and they work great. From Dolt you have to do the short, 40' rappel, and then I believe rap 110' to an Ephemeron anchor, and then move back on the Nose but maybe others who have done it will chime in. 

For sure the Nose is super windy, and many have been stranded or suffered worse fates from two-rope rapping when they're ropes got stuck doing long rappels - and trailing a rope in windy conditions that you only need for the raps creates many snafus: The one-rope rap system from Eagle Ledge should be embraced - that is a much better NIAD training run to go all the way to Eagle than to stop at Dolt, which as Hans says is only a third of your time on the NIAD. I'd say Eagle is half of your NIAD time but maybe a little bit less, just speculating..... So perfect in Yosemite right now - Get Sum!

Erik

Yosemitebigwall.com

M Appelquist wrote:

Factually, many trails and roads have been added throughout the history of establishing Yosemite National Park. Most trails added to facilitate having more people enjoy the national park. A swank hotel near Royal Arches was added to bring wealthy patrons to the park. High Sierra camps have been added to make the wilderness experience more accessible. Looks like the ethics and intent of the establishment of Yosemite National Park is rich with progress.

Yeah, tradition has many nuances.  So maybe not a cross to kneel before.  Or is it?

Ever growing access and capitalism are not good for the wilderness. Tradition has its’ limits. After having lived most of what will be my life, and much of that in the wilderness, I’d rather see less access and more quotas even if I don’t get to go wherever and whenever I want.

But does that translate full circle back to the comment you were replying to: not changing rap routes / protection?  For me, probably. There, though, my focus is on feeding the appetites of the few risk takers as much or more than the general masses. Because things too “naturally” gravitate to the latter to the detriment of the former. 

Almost certainly can't get down with a 60m, probably can with a 70m. My experience:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120326923/single-rope-rappels-on-the-nose#ForumMessage-120347465

But Bill there are over a 100 routes on El Cap, so plenty of chance to get off the beaten track. Nose, Lurking Fear, and Salathe are the easiest routes - so have to be set up for more traffic.

There is no end, Erik. Here is some related reading.  It is a safe link. And my meaning is at least as genuine as yours.

Bill you're wrong - El Cap is empty. Bigwall climber numbers have been in decline since 2000. No one is advocating making Reticent into a super highway with steel biners at the belays and lower out points.....but the Nose, the most classic route in the world and an exceptionally easy route by El Cap standards - yeah that's smart. Like 94 of the 102 El Cap routes will see no traffic this year. Many will see one ascent every 10-20 years. There is nothing wrong with modernizing The Nose and the couple other trade routes.

Erik

Yosemitebigwall.com

A friend and I climbed the Nose recently with a single 60  and short tagline.  I have to say, there's something to be said about the feeling of commitment once your pendulum over to the stovelegs.  It's up you go or make a very expensive rappel back down.  Do you think that committed feeling would be lost if you set up single 60 raps from EL?

I also appreciate Erik's passion for this route as well as Yosemite climbing overall.

Surprisingly we had the route to ourselves on a mostly perfect day in October. Incredible.  We were also surprised just how slow the Valley was in general.  

My only complaint is that it seems each year the road is re-routed differently.  So confusing and frankly, all the barriers are a huge eyesore.  Why do they do that?   Seems like it changes every year.