Ethics and style- slippery slope

Royal was a hypocrite..  Bolts were fine when he placed them and they were evil when someone else placed them. heck he has bolt ladders named after him... 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Royal was a hypocrite..  Bolts were fine when he placed them and they were evil when someone else placed them. heck he has bolt ladders named after him... 

We're talking about bolts placed with power drills, usually rap bolted, vs ground-up on the lead, not about placing or not placing bolts at all.

Buck Riowrote:

Maybe by some of the losers not able to put up routes in good style...Royal et al wanted to keep the adventure high, and the outcome unknown. He probably bailed off more routes that you or I have climbed, instead of giving in to the darker side of his nature and place a bolt. 

Rap bolted, comfortized, sport routes have none of that. We have all dogged up routes, and I always felt a little diminished after.

Wasn't this robins guy a like 5.10 climber that pretty much had to aid up everything?

I know like 100 at my gym that climb 5.10 and anyone can pull on gear, don't know why anyone cares what this dude had to say 50 years ago.

As they said in Malcom in the middle: "The future is now, old man."

Wasn't this robins guy a like 5.10 climber that pretty much had to aid up everything?

Seriously? You gotta be joking

Royal was arguably the leading free climber in America for a decade, his FFA of Athlete’s Feat in 1964 was one of the hardest free routes in America. He pioneered the Salathe Wall, The NA, 3 major Half Dome walls. Free soloed the Steck Salathe, I believe first guy to do it.

Plus he did the first kayak descent of the Kern River from its headwaters - 100 miles. Just carrying an old school kayak over the crest at Whitney was an amazing accomplishment.

I climbed with him once, along with Yabo at the Cookie, and he wouldn’t drive us back to Camp 4 afterwards, he dropped us off at the 120 turnoff to hitchhike back. So he did live up to his reputation as a dick in a small way. But I was most impressed by him liebacking 20’ up a steep unclimbed crack near The Cleft, with no protection, and then calmly and precisely downclimbing it.

The guy was a badass climber, way ahead of his time.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Wasn't this robins guy a like 5.10 climber that pretty much had to aid up everything?

I'm not sure. And it's Robbins, by the way.

I had the rare privilege of climbing a Robbins route several years ago; actually, now I think about it, several decades ago. It was a wall, so substantially aid climbing, but it did include a particular couple of wide free pitches; of the two, 5.10 and 5.9, I got to lead the latter. I say "lead", but I only got up it by inserting a not entirely secure tube-chock at some point and executing a sort of mantel  until I was standing on it. This crack was a five-incher, meaning that it fell in the gap that wasn't covered by the standard bongs of the day with which Robbins was equipped; and tube-chocks, of course, had yet to see the light of day. So he would have had to free-climb it; you can only pull on gear - so easy to do these days, as you suggest - when there's gear to pull on. As it happened I led a couple of other wide cracks on that trip: the third pitch of Reed's Direct [5.10a] and Super Squeeze in Boulder Canyon [5.10d, apparently]; despite my shenanigans with the tube-chock both of the other two seemed easier.

It's quite a while since I've been to The Valley, hence the most recent guidebook that I own is the second SuperTopo edition [2005]. Not long ago I checked it to see how much the ratings had altered on the route in question. Not surprisingly the aid ratings had generally dropped a notch or two from their original A4; pretty normal over the course of thirty-five years, I think. What caught my eye, though, was the [then] modern rating of that 5.9 pitch.

Still 5.9?

No.

5.8, then; everybody's so much stronger these days?

Er - no.

Ok - 5.10; ratings on the 'wide' have often crept up a bit?

Uh-uh.

So; must be 5.11. '5.9+' and all that!

Still wrong. The given rating was C1. 

I wondered what that tells us, if anything. Thirty-five years on, and possibly even now, are wall-climbers not expected to be capable of what Robbins managed on the first ascent? Or is it now simply too trivial to bother with? Except that - what with 5.9 being so trivial and all - why would it be any 'bother'?  No idea.

As they said in Malcom in the middle: "The future is now, old man."

From the way in which we occasionally appear to be struggling to keep up with what people were doing in the past I'd say that the future isn't now; it's still in the future - and possibly more so than it used to be. And when we finally get there we'll probably all be old - you included.

[I see the spelling hasn't improved; it's 'Malcolm'.]

I have put up quite a few new routes that have bolts. Ground up is fun and sometimes makes sense as the only reasonable way to get up the cliff but thoughtful top down development usually produces better placements.  I have done my share of hand drilling and it sucks for your tendonitis.  power drill makes tighter hole  and gets the job done.  If I never drill another bolt by hand that is just fine by me. Bottom line is if you are going to drill a hole it better be a good one and it better be in the right spot. Its something we all have to live with at least as long as you are alive  so be damn certain to make it a good route with good hardware and placements that actually protect the leader and second from ground or ledgefall at or within three full grades of the climb. .   The simple fact is that a bolt is meant to protect. if you place it in such a way that  it does not protect you did a shitty job.   If you feel the need to strut your stuff and be a hero give up the drill. Not cool to impose your ego on everyone else.  All you really need for ego stroking is a pair of shoes and a chalk bag. red T shirt for the photos ;)  You get to be that hero and no one has to live with a shitty route. 

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Wasn't this robins guy a like 5.10 climber that pretty much had to aid up everything?

I know like 100 at my gym that climb 5.10 and anyone can pull on gear, don't know why anyone cares what this dude had to say 50 years ago.

As they said in Malcom in the middle: "The future is now, old man."

He did a lot of things. Seldom talked about, but he did the second ascent of the north face of Mt. Edith Cavell, solo.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I have put up quite a few new routes that have bolts. Ground up is fun and sometimes makes sense as the only reasonable way to get up the cliff but thoughtful top down development usually produces better placements.  I have done my share of hand drilling and it sucks for your tendonitis.  power drill makes tighter hole  and gets the job done.  If I never drill another bolt by hand that is just fine by me. Bottom line is if you are going to drill a hole it better be a good one and it better be in the right spot. Its something we all have to live with at least as long as you are alive  so be damn certain to make it a good route with good hardware and placements that actually protect the leader and second from ground or ledgefall at or within three full grades of the climb. .   The simple fact is that a bolt is meant to protect. if you place it in such a way that  it does not protect you did a shitty job.   If you feel the need to strut your stuff and be a hero give up the drill. Not cool to impose your ego on everyone else.  All you really need for ego stroking is a pair of shoes and a chalk bag. red T shirt for the photos ;)  You get to be that hero and no one has to live with a shitty route. 

I totally agree with Nick on this one.

Nick, you do make some good points, but this:

You get to be that hero and no one has to live with a shitty route.

Are you saying serious, runout routes with big/dangerous fall potential, drilled ground up, are “shitty routes” in your opinion?

Not every route has to be set for the lowest common denominator 

Kevin.  Serious run out bolted  routes established ground up are brilliant ascents but if you don't go back and fix it or allow it to be fixed you just ruined a perfectly good cliff. The whole point of bolts is for protection. If they don't protect from serious injury within 3 grades of the grade of the pitch you did a complete hack job of bolting.  Example a 5.10 pitch  could have some 5.7 moves in the no fall zone and still be a brilliant pitch. In fact those scary moves might be part of what makes it brilliant.  If however it was rated 5.9RX your a dick.  If the next pitch is 5.7 and you make the 5.7 pitch an X your a hack because it would be darn nice to be able to let your weaker partner have a nice lead. If you are tall and you drill all your bolts  at your max reach you are a hack. The preferred method is to test your max reach and then drill 6 inches lower if possible. A bolted route is not all about you. Its about everyone who will follow you and either be stuck with your work or blessed by your work.   If your not drilling none of this matters but if you break out the drill you need to do a good job. Period.    I am dead serious about the free soloing suggestion.  If you really have the need to be that far out on the edge please free solo. You get to do your thing without  forcing great routes to be off limits for almost everybody.  This would not be an issue at all if 5.12 climbers stuck to making 5.12 horror fests but they usually don't. They do however seem to have a habit of completely ruining 5.10 and below climbs.  So yes free soloing is a much more constructive use of their time and energy INMOP . Heck one of our local hardmen just added 7 bolts to one of his 5.7s because (big surprise) no one was climbing it. That is a great community service and a job well done. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Kevin.  Serious run out bolted  routes established ground up are brilliant ascents but if you don't go back and fix it or allow it to be fixed you just ruined a perfectly good cliff. The whole point of bolts is for protection. If they don't protect from serious injury within 3 grades of the grade of the pitch you did a complete hack job of bolting.  Example a 5.10 pitch  could have some 5.7 moves in the no fall zone and still be a brilliant pitch. In fact those scary moves might be part of what makes it brilliant.  If however it was rated 5.9RX your a dick.  If the next pitch is 5.7 and you make the 5.7 pitch an X your a hack because it would be darn nice to be able to let your weaker partner have a nice lead. If you are tall and you drill all your bolts  at your max reach you are a hack. The preferred method is to test your max reach and then drill 6 inches lower if possible. A bolted route is not all about you. Its about everyone who will follow you and either be stuck with your work or blessed by your work.   If your not drilling none of this matters but if you break out the drill you need to do a good job. Period.    I am dead serious about the free soloing suggestion.  If you really have the need to be that far out on the edge please free solo. You get to do your thing without  forcing great routes to be off limits for almost everybody.  This would not be an issue at all if 5.12 climbers stuck to making 5.12 horror fests but they usually don't. They do however seem to have a habit of completely ruining 5.10 and below climbs.  So yes free soloing is a much more constructive use of their time and energy INMOP . Heck one of our local hardmen just added 7 bolts to one of his 5.7s because (big surprise) no one was climbing it. That is a great community service and a job well done. 

Alot to unpack but to sum up a response, no need for all routes to be safe and one man's ruined cliff is another man's perfect cliff. The route has been claimed by the FA and it's theirs for eternity, like it or not. Bring yourself up to the level of the route, it's worth the effort.

Eric Engbergwrote:

Not every route has to be set for the lowest common denominator 

After May 1, 2022, The Climbing Community will no longer provide technical support for routes that are not safe and accessible. No deviations from Community standards will be allowed.  

WF WF51wrote:

After May 1, 2022, The Climbing Community will no longer provide technical support for routes that are not safe and accessible. No deviations from Community standards will be allowed.    

What are you talking about??? Does it need to be ADA compliant and who is going to govern this extremely vague ideology and statement?? 

R Gwrote:

What are you talking about??? Does it need to be ADA compliant and who is going to govern this extremely vague ideology and statement?? 

Whoosh...

nano. not all routes need to be safe .   if you own a drill however you either need to know how to bolt properly or sell the damn thing, suck it up and learn how to solo. . your statement that  the route is claimed by the FA and is going to be theirs for eternity sums it up perfectly.  I buy into that sentiment 100% which is why I do a damn good job of it when I break out the drill.  I also solo and climb ice  both of which activities don't impose shitty bolting on everyone else for eternity. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

First off- "your" and "you're" mean different things. Ex: You should accept your own advice, and go free solo until you've decided you're done ruining everyone else's thread with your hack writing and ideas.

Secondly- In this country, people are free to climb and bolt routes as they see fit. Developers certainly don't owe anyone anything. If they bolt something you don't like, contact them and ask if they, or you can fix it, and if they say no, then accept that you won't ever get to lead it. Go to the top, rapp in and TR it as much as you'd like, just like you would if there weren't any bolts in it. Also, no one is stopping anyone from climbing a bolted route with supplemental cams. You can still climb these "forever ruined" lines, you just have to put in the work. So, please stop complaining about this like it's a form of climbing apartheid.

Addendum: Climbing consumers should be aware that after the aforementioned date, May 1, 2022, the integrity of fixed protection that had been installed without the approval of The Climbing Community cannot be guaranteed.

I think its only a matter of time that the national land management agencies institute wide-spread new-bolt permitting process. This will be driven by the failure of climbers to self-regulate. Generally this is a tragedy of the commons issue.

WF WF51wrote:

Addendum: Climbing consumers should be aware that after the aforementioned date, May 1, 2022, the integrity of fixed protection that had been installed without the approval of The Climbing Community cannot be guaranteed.

Maybe if you had the date be April 1 it would help anyone prone to a whoosh reaction