Ethics and style- slippery slope

Nkane 1wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFjwrCI4-D8

This exists, but I think has as much mechanization as a mountain bike so probably also runs afoul of the Wilderness Act.

Mechanization is actually not illegal.  Mechanized travel is illegal, which is what makes bicycles illegal.  Battery drills aren't outlawed due to mechanization, they are outlawed because they aren't powered by man or beast: "Motorized equipment, as herein used, shall include any machine activated by a nonliving power source."  A mechanized hamster powered drill should be totally fine.

https://winapps.umt.edu/winapps/media2/wilderness/NWPS/documents/FS/FS_Wilderness_Regulations.pdf

Also, I think that if you interpret the rules really literally, aid climbing on SLCDs is probably verboten, since it's basically a vertical version of mechanized travel.    

Marc801 Cwrote:

No. All the walls in Yosemite are considered wilderness. Power tools or vehicles are prohibited in designated wilderness.

Not true. The Rostrum and Elephant Rock are both outside of the Wilderness, but power drills are still banned there to reduce climber impact.

Kyle Tarrywrote:

Mechanization is actually not illegal.  Mechanized travel is illegal, which is what makes bicycles illegal.  Battery drills aren't outlawed due to mechanization, they are outlawed because they aren't powered by man or beast: "Motorized equipment, as herein used, shall include any machine activated by a nonliving power source."  A mechanized hamster powered drill should be totally fine.

https://winapps.umt.edu/winapps/media2/wilderness/NWPS/documents/FS/FS_Wilderness_Regulations.pdf

Also, I think that if you interpret the rules really literally, aid climbing on SLCDs is probably verboten, since it's basically a vertical version of mechanized travel.    

Good catch!

But I think SLCDs are fine, along with the horse drill. The reg says there shall be  "no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment, motorboats, or other forms of mechanical transport" (36 CFR 293.6.) Cams aren't motorized, so they'd have to be mechanical transport. But "Mechanical transport" is defined as "any contrivance which travels over ground, snow, or water on wheels, tracks, skids, or by floatation and is propelled by a nonliving power source contained or carried on or within the device." (36 CFR 293.6(a).) Cams don't have wheels, tracks, skids, or floatation [sic] and they don't travel; you actually leave them behind. So I think we're all good.

I have made it my goal to fix enough pieces on all the classics that they all become defacto sport climbs. Imagine not having to bring anything but a rope to climb anything you want. This is the future I dream :). 

It follows the rules, it's safe and makes the sport inclusive for those who can't afford a rack. 

Let me know if you want to donate. 

Larry Giacominowrote:

Troubles me to see the bolting with power drills on routes, particularly in Yosemite.

It’s illegal to use power drills in a national park… so if you see it… which you said you did, you should definitely call a ranger. 

I wouldn’t say ethics and style are a thing of the past in the climbing realm, but the good ol days the OP is alluding to were definitely different. I disagree with the notion that if climbers had power drills in the 60’s and 70’s they would have been doing the same thing as modern climbers. The ground up ethic of that era was all consuming, no respectable climber would place a free climbing protection bolt on rappel, ever. Hand drilling had everything to do with style, ethics, challenge, and boldness. That was foremost in the mind of any first ascensionist. The line, the position and the quality of the route were paramount after that. Had the power drill been available, the principle would have remained the same.

The evolution of free climbing to rap bolting was tumultuous for a decade in the US, but in retrospect it was perfectly natural. Sport climbing tactics opened up a new realm of amazing climbing, in spite of the fact that ethics and style had to take on different meanings.

I personally love good, steep rap bolted routes, but I feel super lucky to have learned to climb on a goldline with just a hammer and holster, a rack of pins, some runners, a bowline on a coil and a pair of Kronnies. Also super lucky to have climbed through the clean climbing era, lived in Yosemite through the 70’s, and climbed with high minded pioneers of freeclimbing when using any aid whatsoever was to fail.

Climbing was so clean and simple then. The cleaner and simpler, the better. I can’t believe how complicated modern climbers try to make it. And I don’t get why some older climbers pine for the old days. I feel blessed to have seen it all. I just feel a little bad for the climbers that weren’t there, and will never know the feeling.

The slippery slope in climbing isn’t where ethics and style is concerned, it’s where govt regulation rears its ugly head. As far as that goes, the sheer quantity of climbers is more of a problem than the quantity of bolts, or how they were placed.

Seriously… who cares??? No one other than weirdo dirtbags and boomer trad dads care. 99.99% of climbing pop. does not care. 

Harry Kwrote:

Seriously… who cares??? No one other than weirdo dirtbags and boomer trad dads care. 99.99% of climbing pop. does not care. 

Me. I live in a house. You’d probably be surprised by the amount of climbers who do care. 

Long live the Yosemite ban on power tools! 

Connor Dobsonwrote:

I have made it my goal to fix enough pieces on all the classics that they all become defacto sport climbs. Imagine not having to bring anything but a rope to climb anything you want. This is the future I dream :). 

It follows the rules, it's safe and makes the sport inclusive for those who can't afford a rack. 

Let me know if you want to donate. 

For alot of people sport climbing is boring, bringing all the gear and figuring out the placements is the core of the fun.

Bill Wwrote:

For alot of people sport climbing is boring, bringing all the gear and figuring out the placements is the core of the fun.

It's okay, I can trad climb when I'm older and can't climb hard anymore.

Connor Dobsonwrote:

It's okay, I can trad climb when I'm older and can't climb hard anymore.

Cool. How hard do you climb now?

Bill Wwrote:

Cool. How hard do you climb now?

Breaking in to 5.10 but it's like 5.17 in your gym

It's okay, I can trad climb when I'm older and can't climb hard anymore.

My experience has been the opposite - that sport climbing with its bomber bolts is better suited to an older climber - less chance of injury, less gear weight to climb with, and less testosterone required.

Sport climbing wasn’t an option for me when I was young and reckless. “Climbing hard” is not necessarily all about the rating when you’re “trad” climbing, needless to say

Kevin Worrallwrote:

My experience has been the opposite - that sport climbing with its bomber bolts is better suited to an older climber - less chance of injury, less gear weight to climb with, and less testosterone required.

Sport climbing wasn’t an option for me when I was young and reckless. “Climbing hard” is not necessarily all about the rating when you’re “trad” climbing, needless to say

There are tons of great, well protected moderate trad routes. There are not many great moderate sport routes. I certainly hope to climb well protected moderates/easy when 70. I have little faith in climbing hardish sport when 70. 

Marc801 C wrote:

What does it matter? If there were portable power drills in the 60's it's a certainty that they would have been used as they are now. Rap placed protection started long before bolted sport climbing.

Maybe by some of the losers not able to put up routes in good style...Royal et al wanted to keep the adventure high, and the outcome unknown. He probably bailed off more routes that you or I have climbed, instead of giving in to the darker side of his nature and place a bolt. 

Rap bolted, comfortized, sport routes have none of that. We have all dogged up routes, and I always felt a little diminished after.

Royal was a hypocrite..  Bolts were fine when he placed them and they were evil when someone else placed them. heck he has bolt ladders named after him... 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Royal was a hypocrite..  Bolts were fine when he placed them and they were evil when someone else placed them. heck he has bolt ladders named after him... 

We're talking about bolts placed with power drills, usually rap bolted, vs ground-up on the lead, not about placing or not placing bolts at all.

Buck Riowrote:

Maybe by some of the losers not able to put up routes in good style...Royal et al wanted to keep the adventure high, and the outcome unknown. He probably bailed off more routes that you or I have climbed, instead of giving in to the darker side of his nature and place a bolt. 

Rap bolted, comfortized, sport routes have none of that. We have all dogged up routes, and I always felt a little diminished after.

Wasn't this robins guy a like 5.10 climber that pretty much had to aid up everything?

I know like 100 at my gym that climb 5.10 and anyone can pull on gear, don't know why anyone cares what this dude had to say 50 years ago.

As they said in Malcom in the middle: "The future is now, old man."

Wasn't this robins guy a like 5.10 climber that pretty much had to aid up everything?

Seriously? You gotta be joking

Royal was arguably the leading free climber in America for a decade, his FFA of Athlete’s Feat in 1964 was one of the hardest free routes in America. He pioneered the Salathe Wall, The NA, 3 major Half Dome walls. Free soloed the Steck Salathe, I believe first guy to do it.

Plus he did the first kayak descent of the Kern River from its headwaters - 100 miles. Just carrying an old school kayak over the crest at Whitney was an amazing accomplishment.

I climbed with him once, along with Yabo at the Cookie, and he wouldn’t drive us back to Camp 4 afterwards, he dropped us off at the 120 turnoff to hitchhike back. So he did live up to his reputation as a dick in a small way. But I was most impressed by him liebacking 20’ up a steep unclimbed crack near The Cleft, with no protection, and then calmly and precisely downclimbing it.

The guy was a badass climber, way ahead of his time.