It is not ok to simul climb over another party

Aaron Hopewrote:

In 2012, when Hans and Alex passed us about 500 feet from the top of the Nose on their way to setting a new speed record, Alex stopped to ask permission to pass. Then, as Hans passed, he shook our hands and said thank you at least three times. This happened while they were setting a WORLD RECORD. That is because Hans and Alex understand that it is a huge deal to simul over another party. It is not to be taken lightly, and certainly should not be assumed. You are not Hans and Alex. Go climb a non-crowded climb super-fast if you need to get your speed rocks off.  

Seriously. Stop this crap. It is not ok.

Here’s the story that led to this rant. There are other stories leading up to this over almost two decades of climbing, like the time I was doing the RNWF of halfdome in a day and a faster party insisted on simuling over us and then, when we caught up to them, they were frazzled and the follower tied a munter instead of a clove at the belay and started falling down the side of half dome until I arrested the rope before he could pull his leader off. I shit you not. That actually happened.   But I won’t go into those ones. Back to the story at hand.

I climbed the Regular Route of Fairview for the first time this weekend. I have steered clear of this route because of the shit show stories I’ve heard of crowds. I’ve bided my time, waiting for a time to drive by and only see 1 or 2 other cars in the pullout. Its literally taken years. On Saturday, it happened. I drove by on my way to take my kids to Tenaya lake and noticed only two cars. I dopped the family off, and me and another dad headed back to see if there were more cars. There were not. This was our time. We headed to the base. We knew we could climb it pretty fast, so a later afternoon start in the warmth was ideal. We took our time at the base, chatting and organizing. No one was around. Then two other parties appeared behind us. Fun time was over, time to get started. I racked up and started up. I was about 20 feet up when the other party also started up, leading the bolted slab route to the left. I wasn’t moving slow. I ran out my 70m rope to the tree and set up a belay in about 15 minutes. Then the other leader merged onto our line about 20 feet below and climbed past me – his follower now also climbing. There was no “ask” to pass. His rope ran across our belay and he continued for another 20 feet before placing gear. Then another 20 feet and one more piece. If he fell, he would fall right on top of me and my belay. My life was at the mercy of a 20-something stranger. Still, I kept my cool. Until his partner yelled up “where did you cross over” and something like “watch me”. Neither of these things should be heard while simulclimbing. Then the follower took a fall and swung into the crack. I’m still here to write about this because there was a Duck/progress-capture-device on the piece above her to prevent the leader from being ripped off. But the tensioned rope took a hard swing, slammed into my head, and threw me off balance while I was belaying up my follower. I was using a guide atc in guide-mode so no risk to my follower. But seriously. That was BS. The follower apologized profusely as she climbed past. Still, no “ask” to pass.

I was a bit frazzled but shook it off. The next party was also fast and we just let them simul pass because we didn’t want to be rushed (again, we weren’t slow…we finished the route in a little over 2 hours…not a speed record by any means, but not gumby time either). This party didn’t ask to pass either. They just kept climbing through one of my belays. On the next pitch, I caught up to them and took a left variation to avoid conflicts. Then, as I was belaying up my follower I watched their second take a fall off a 5.7 roof. They weren’t simuling at that moment…but they had been simuling above me on similar terrain just minutes before. Wow.

I get that being stuck behind slow parties sucks. I’ve been on the waiting end many times. But there’s too much rock out there to justify climbing over each other. I don’t care how fast you are. It is dangerous and I want to let you know that it is never ok unless 1) you ask before you leave the ground AND  2) you do it in such a way that present minimal if any danger to me or my partner. Be prepared to accept, with grace, someone saying “no”. Better yet, if you’re so strong, go climb something harder, away from the crowds.

I also understand you are a hot shot young climber and popular climbs are getting crowded. But climbing is dangerous and I climb because I know how to mitigate those risks for myself. When you simul climb over me, placing gear every 40 feet, you put me and my partner at risk because I have no control over you, your skills, or your decision-making abilities. You may think there’s very little risk involved. I disagree. I don’t want my kids to grow up fatherless because some speed climber made a minor mistake that led to bodies plummeting down the mountain on top of me.

How do you feel about free-soloists?

I just re-read this and looked up the route - second fell at the crux of Rumor Has It - 11b slab?  Not many can confidently say they won’t fall on that, note Alex’s attitude toward the Freeblast crux.  The expectation that these micro trax and similar devices qualify as routine lead climbing pro where falls are more likely - dicey to just plain stupid.  They’re not rated and imo have many subtle failure modes.  It’s just a matter of time.

Nick Rhodeswrote:

How do you feel about free-soloists?

Good question. I generally, don't like it for the same reason...they are putting you at risk if they fall. But they cause less of a cluster and the likelihood that they fall is dramatically less. So, it's not my favorite, but all things considered, it's not something I stress about. 

Aaron Hopewrote:

Good question. I generally, don't like it for the same reason...they are putting you at risk if they fall. But they cause less of a cluster and the likelihood that they fall is dramatically less. So, it's not my favorite, but all things considered, it's not something I stress about. 

Ya, I don't think the risk is near as much though, no rope and second person to rip you off the wall. Also, the free soloist is probably much more experienced than the simul crew. Used to be that is was only experienced people simuling but it looks like times have changed!

Just say no to climbing trade routes on a weekend!

First off aaron I'm sorry that happened to you. Experienced something similar myself on an easy route (White Maiden's) at Tahquitz. My friend and I were hanging out at a big ledge halfway up when some simul'ers came romping up in good spirits. They did ask politely to pass and we gladly obliged. However about 50 feet up the leader started looking extremely shaky and stalled out.  The follower, climbing up on easy terrain, joined us on the ledge and a big loop of slack piled up between them.

I calmly BUT FIRMLY asked the follower to put his partner on belay. A few seconds later he peeled off. YIKES.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

Neither of us own the rock, so I don’t need your permission. If you’re taking an hour per pitch and taking half an hour, I’m going to pass, and I’m not going to ask.

Nice selffish attitude on display. How will you react when I pull a knife and hold it to your rope? I mean, since you're endangering me and my partner, seems best to return the favor. 

A V wrote:

Lmao all this thread has taught me is that climbers are freaking psychos that need to be given a wide berth

Well, that's fair. But let me ask you: if someone is directly endangering you and being selfish about it. wouldn't you consider that psycho? 

I guess another option is to grab some of the slack rope and tie it off.

Or better yet the person who wants to pass could just be polite and have a conversation instead of being a selfish asshole who doesn't care about anything except their own ego?

My attitude toward people passing is probably more informed by ice climbing. Back in 1997 or so, I had a regular climbing partner who was solid at following on ice. I had been climbing a lot and felt good enough to lead all four pitches of Ames Ice Hose. We got up early, and since we weren't sure of the appproach we were skis and skins with the old Ramer bindings for the approach. Unfortunately, we went the wrong way and it took longer to get there than it should have. Just as we got to the approach gully below the Hose, another team came up fast and went up the gully. My partner was defiitely slower, and they beat us to the base. I took a look at it, considered the consequences of ice falling down from above, and called it, and we went to Ouray and did Horsetail instead. I have no regrets. 

Passing people while on a cragging route is just being an asshole. I think big wall aid routes on El Cap are different. 

A V wrote:

Lmao all this thread has taught me is that climbers are freaking psychos that need to be given a wide berth

Off-belay knife is standard rack for the front range

C Hwrote:

Nice selffish attitude on display. How will you react when I pull a knife and hold it to your rope? I mean, since you're endangering me and my partner, seems best to return the favor. 

Wow, you’re a real treat of a human being. Getting there first doesn’t entitle you to anything. The best solution in a passing situation is the one that maximizes happiness for all parties. You’re not going to have much fun with someone twice as fast as you up your ass for five pitches, and the “dangers” of being passed are vastly overstated.

Can someone provide an example of an accident report where a party was attempting to pass a slower party, and the leader (or follower) in the passing party fell and injured the party being passed? 

Note: I agree with the OP that in the situation they describe from this weekend, those parties should not have passed.

Candace is right on.  I was climbing the Bastille crack in Eldo one time (with partner and rope), was on the 1st belay (2 pitches combined), and a soloist whom I hadn't seen went

right by me. . . I had almost turned at that same second, and could have knocked him off the wall not even knowing he was there. . . he was a very lucky fellow that day (in addition to 

being a flaming ahole).

This thread reminds me of George Carlin’s bit about driving — "Anyone driving faster than you is a maniac; anyone driving slower than you is an idiot."

I’ve passed and been passed plenty of times without incident.  And I’ve been passed by soloists and simulers too.  It’s when people have an ego or in over their heads that there are problems, but as far as I’m concerned that’s a problem with the individuals involved, and not with the act of passing itself (or the act of passing while simuling.)

Now carry on with the stories of people doing ridiculous shit, I’m enjoying them.

A V wrote:

I agree that the climbers who passed you seem to not be competent enough to be simuling a route at that grade. That being said, I've learned to stop asking to pass if I know I'm simuling much faster than the people I am passing. Too many gripped newbies that will say no. 

Instead, I present it as "I'm about to pass you - how do you want me to do that? ...

A striking contrast between the OP story about how Hans and Alex handle passing, and this.

There are great climbers and then there are, um, well .... yeah.

Rapists get the knife:  seems reasonable to me.

soft cruxwrote:

A striking contrast between the OP story about how Hans and Alex handle passing, and this.

There are great climbers and then there are, um, well .... yeah.

You think if Hans and Alex asked to pass, and were told no… that they still wouldn’t pass? Uh huh.

At my post limit but soft crux - would you actually care to address my question? Or just throw around vague insults and ignore the question I asked?

Alexander Blumwrote:

You think if Hans and Alex asked to pass, and were told no… that they still wouldn’t pass? Uh huh.

The thread is full of Instagram hard men boasting of their exploits simu-climbing moderate trade routes.

And you chose to argue with the post that said Hans and Alex are great climbers.

There are some seriously fragile egos here.

James Wwrote:

I just re-read this and looked up the route - second fell at the crux of Rumor Has It - 11b slab?  Not many can confidently say they won’t fall on that, note Alex’s attitude toward the Freeblast crux.  The expectation that these micro trax and similar devices qualify as routine lead climbing pro where falls are more likely - dicey to just plain stupid.  They’re not rated and imo have many subtle failure modes.  It’s just a matter of time.

Are you thinking these progress capture devices catch lead falls?  Umm.  You are disqualified from simul climbing.  

Greg Dwrote:

Are you thinking these progress capture devices catch lead falls?  Umm.  You are disqualified from simul climbing.  

After placing and until the next piece.  The second falling with much slack has little margin, as has been shown by Petzl.  Have you ever? What route?  Otherwise go back to the Calypso thread.