It is not ok to simul climb over another party

In 2012, when Hans and Alex passed us about 500 feet from the top of the Nose on their way to setting a new speed record, Alex stopped to ask permission to pass. Then, as Hans passed, he shook our hands and said thank you at least three times. This happened while they were setting a WORLD RECORD. That is because Hans and Alex understand that it is a huge deal to simul over another party. It is not to be taken lightly, and certainly should not be assumed. You are not Hans and Alex. Go climb a non-crowded climb super-fast if you need to get your speed rocks off.  

Here’s the story that led to this rant. There are other stories leading up to this over almost two decades of climbing, like the time I was doing the RNWF of halfdome in a day and a faster party insisted on simuling over us and then, when we caught up to them, they were frazzled and the follower tied a munter instead of a clove at the belay and started falling down the side of half dome until I arrested the rope before he could pull his leader off. I shit you not. That actually happened.   But I won’t go into those ones. Back to the story at hand.

I climbed the Regular Route of Fairview for the first time this weekend. I have steered clear of this route because of the shit show stories I’ve heard of crowds. I’ve bided my time, waiting for a time to drive by and only see 1 or 2 other cars in the pullout. Its literally taken years. On Saturday, it happened. I drove by on my way to take my kids to Tenaya lake and noticed only two cars. I dopped the family off, and me and another dad headed back to see if there were more cars. There were not. This was our time. We headed to the base. We knew we could climb it pretty fast, so a later afternoon start in the warmth was ideal. We took our time at the base, chatting and organizing. No one was around. Then two other parties appeared behind us. Fun time was over, time to get started. I racked up and started up. I was about 20 feet up when the other party also started up, leading the bolted slab route to the left. I wasn’t moving slow. I ran out my 70m rope to the tree and set up a belay in about 15 minutes. Then the other leader merged onto our line about 20 feet below and climbed past me – his follower now also climbing. There was no “ask” to pass. His rope ran across our belay and he continued for another 20 feet before placing gear. Then another 20 feet and one more piece. If he fell, he would fall right on top of me and my belay. My life was at the mercy of a 20-something stranger. Still, I kept my cool. Until his partner yelled up “where did you cross over” and something like “watch me”. Neither of these things should be heard while simulclimbing. Then the follower took a fall and swung into the crack. I’m still here to write about this because there was a Duck/progress-capture-device on the piece above her to prevent the leader from being ripped off. But the tensioned rope took a hard swing, slammed into my head, and threw me off balance while I was belaying up my follower. I was using a guide atc in guide-mode so no risk to my follower. But seriously. That was BS. The follower apologized profusely as she climbed past. Still, no “ask” to pass.

I was a bit frazzled but shook it off. The next party was also fast and we just let them simul pass because we didn’t want to be rushed (again, we weren’t slow…we finished the route in a little over 2 hours…not a speed record by any means, but not gumby time either). This party didn’t ask to pass either. They just kept climbing through one of my belays. On the next pitch, I caught up to them and took a left variation to avoid conflicts. Then, as I was belaying up my follower I watched their second take a fall off a 5.7 roof. They weren’t simuling at that moment…but they had been simuling above me on similar terrain just minutes before. Wow.

I get that being stuck behind slow parties sucks. I’ve been on the waiting end many times. But there’s too much rock out there to justify climbing over each other. I don’t care how fast you are. It is dangerous and I want to let you know that it is never ok unless 1) you ask before you leave the ground AND  2) you do it in such a way that present minimal if any danger to me or my partner. Be prepared to accept, with grace, someone saying “no”. Better yet, if you’re so strong, go climb something harder, away from the crowds.

I also understand you are a hot shot young climber and popular climbs are getting crowded. But climbing is dangerous and I climb because I know how to mitigate those risks for myself. When you simul climb over me, placing gear every 40 feet, you put me and my partner at risk because I have no control over you, your skills, or your decision-making abilities. You may think there’s very little risk involved. I disagree. I don’t want my kids to grow up fatherless because some speed climber made a minor mistake that led to bodies plummeting down the mountain on top of me.

The reg route on Fairview is synonymous with shit show.

I hear Lembert dome is beautiful this time of year. 

Asking to pass is cool, but sounds like the biggest problem here was just that the people who passed you were incompetent

The story about catching the other parties climber is insane. You should do an interview on the sharp end podcast or at least write that up for the AAC. Stories like that deserve to be recorded.

I’ve never had a problem with parties asking to pass.   I can’t stand when they don’t ask, and cross ropes and gear, causing a dangerous cluster fuck for everyone.

it’s the hubris of the climbing ego.  Unfortunately, a problem that we will never solve.

I agree with K R.   Incompetence, was the difference between your situation with Alex and Hans.

best of luck.  Have fun and be safe. 

Trade routes lol. Wild stories OP, sorry they happened to you tho

See, that's the thing. Its easy to simply write this off as a case of incompetence. I don't think these parties were incompetent. They were strong climbers. One team knew to use progress capture devices, so likely very experienced. Even still - it was botched. My point is that the nature of simuling is dangerous and complicated even for the strongest of teams. Its easy to think you know better than others and that bad things won't happen when you're in charge. But it can! And when it does, don't be crawling over others. 

Aaron Hope wrote:

And when it does CAN, don't be crawling over others. 

My partner and I were recently passed by a simul-climbing team in the NW Chimney on our way to the Casual Route on the Diamond. The team that passed us was nice enough but the cross-rope madness in such a shit route inevitably led to some chaos. My partner and I (also simuling) ended up in between the leader and follower of the other team. Eventually our team was hung up behind some soloists and the other simul team wanted to pass us again, which I declined. Sometimes a hard no is needed to keep the peace and keep everyone safe, especially when passing gains nothing.

More recently I passed a father-son team on the first of seven pitches of a separate climb. This was after discussion with them at the belay and agreement between parties, but still ended up being a bit of a mess. Passing is hard to get right, so it was good that we agreed beforehand so that tempers didn’t flair when things started to go wrong.

Overall best policy is early bird gets the worm, and enjoy the climbing rather than force a pass. If you really have to, try to have a discussion about it before you execute.

Seems like a large segment of climbers now believe that simul-climbing with a progressive capture device is every bit as safe as a standard pitch-by-pitch belay.   While I'm old crusty and disagree, honestly not sure how the stats pan out on that.     

Man, that sucks, they really stole the enjoyment out of the route for you. People seem so inconsiderate these days. Passing parties, especially simul-climbing parties, should very politely ask and offer reassurance that they won't cause a cluster, and fully accept a "no" for an answer. An exception might be an approaching storm/nightfall with both parties moving at very different speeds. I'm likely to verbally and physically stop someone from passing in the manner you described, but like you, I try to avoid repeating the ultra-classic shit-shows for that reason.

Why are they simul'ing Reg Route if they are falling on 5.7? Lol. what

Aaron Hope wrote:

See, that's the thing. Its easy to simply write this off as a case of incompetence. I don't think these parties were incompetent. They were strong climbers. One team knew to use progress capture devices, so likely very experienced. Even still - it was botched. My point is that the nature of simuling is dangerous and complicated even for the strongest of teams. Its easy to think you know better than others and that bad things won't happen when you're in charge. But it can! And when it does, don't be crawling over others. 

at least to me, falling while simuling definitively confirms incompetence. also, falling on 5.7 means they definitely aren’t strong climbers

Yeah I’m seeing a lot more simul-climbing parties lately, and they don’t seem to care that this increases risk for everybody around.

Another problem is this idea, noted in the supertopo guide, that you can get a quick lap in on an ultra-classic at the end of the day to avoid the crowds. Regular route, west crack, southeast buttress are all likely to have gumbies topping out after dark on the weekend. If you’re simuling you’ll have to pass them no matter when you start. 

k r wrote:

at least to me, falling while simuling definitively confirms incompetence. also, falling on 5.7 means they definitely aren’t strong climbers

I wouldn't say definitively confirms incompetence... But I understand what you mean -- falling shouldn't really be a thing when you are Simul-climbing. That being said, if any fall ever while Simul'ing confirms incompetence, then there is no point to Simul'ing if you are competent and you should just solo. But solo'ing and simul'ing are much different which is why I don't think it's any instant confirmation. What if a hold breaks or a shoe rips for a really competent climber? This is my only counterpoint, otherwise I agree.

Jason Beals wrote:

Why are they simul'ing Reg Route if they are falling on 5.7? Lol. what

It's the trendy thing now for moderately experienced IG climbers to repeatedly "speed climb" the same crowded classics? 

Brandon R wrote:

It's the trendy thing now for moderately experienced IG climbers to repeatedly "speed climb" the same crowded classics? 

Well shit I guess I should just go ahead and buy a few micro tractions. Ill meet you guys next weekend on West Crack to have my follower fall on a couple of parties so I can post on Tik Tok

I have had one party try and do this to me on a super popular climb at cathedral. They attempted to blow past my belayer who told them to go fuck themselves and then made them wait. No passing unless you’re given permission, and don’t feel entitled to pass just because you’re willing to ask. This is one of the few things that I would be willing to get into a fight over. 

Given the circumstances of EASY MODERATE 50 CLASSIC TRADE ROUTE it is inexcusable for a simul-2nd to fall while the party is climbing over yours. To have two of them do it to you in a row is mind blowing. The leaders displayed an utter lack of concern for your safety. 

Aaron Hope wrote:

Better yet, if you’re so strong, go climb something harder, away from the crowds.

This is what I see the most - middle of the pack or less ability and experience - more willing to take risks for a stroke to the ego than to face a challenge where failure and a lesser feeling of control are more likely.

+1 - falling on 5.7 = low talent noobs.

Jason Beals wrote:

I wouldn't say definitively confirms incompetence... But I understand what you mean -- falling shouldn't really be a thing when you are Simul-climbing. That being said, if any fall ever while Simul'ing confirms incompetence, then there is no point to Simul'ing if you are competent and you should just solo. But solo'ing and simul'ing are much different which is why I don't think it's any instant confirmation. What if a hold breaks or a shoe rips for a really competent climber? This is my only counterpoint, otherwise I agree.

idk the old school climbers on hemp rope had ‘no fall’ ethics, because a fall could lead to injury or death, but they still roped up to mitigate that risk.

I would expect the same ethics from simulclimbers whose fall even roped up could result in injury or death. falling in that situation feels a bit incompetent to me