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Choss is Classic
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Lol. Not sarcasm. But that's the problem, my friend: If you're looking at the undeveloped rock, then it IS choss. All the good stuff got bolted already. |
Princess Puppy Lovrwrote: Everywhere has some loose rock to some degree. But if you’ve placed gear and whipped on it on a well traveled index route, compared to a crumbling pile of choss in vantage, where it might pull down half the pillar with you, you’ll agree that index rock is bomber, and vantage is choss. (Besides somewhere that’s been quarried in index.) Even compare basalts: trout creek to vantage. Bomber vs choss. That being said, vantage has its place, and I sill begrudgingly climb there, and have fun... |
saign charlesteinwrote: the rock in index is only bomber after the choss has been removed on the hike up to private Idaho look at the trees. Many have puncture wounds from the rockfall and any time the dogs are barking in index it’s probably someone trundling upsetting them. I don’t think there is any guarantee that someone would rather whip on all index climbs over all vantage climbs. Your criteria mandates high travel which kinda implies the bad rock would be gone. There’s plenty of weird detached flakes in index and deep relatively okay looking columns in vantage. Yosemite the land of bomber rock had a flake fall off and kill someone. Point being the bomber rock has lower volume of choss but way bigger choss. If the criteria of the chossyness of a climbing area is dependent on gear placements then every sport climbing area is choss. |
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People are choss |
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Any place that goes through melt freeze cycles will have loose rock, that doesn't make it choss. Almost all climbs need some cleaning. That doesn't make them choss. I've lobbed multiple 20+ footers in index on finger size and smaller. Well traveled vantage rock crumbles when you touch it. Every other placement sound hollow, and it's hard to trust any of them. If you fall on gear and the rock explodes, it's probably choss. If you can trust a brassy, it's not. Vantage actually has some bands of good rock, most of it sucks. If there was a better place near by that was dry you wouldn't find me there. Choss is well traveled and cleaned rock, that has poor quality, or rock so bad, that it's not worth cleaning. Most of the sport climbing in WA is choss. Loose rock that wobbles when you touch it and constantly changes. Plenty of the sport routes at exit 38 have gear placements, but they bolted it because it's choss. The new river gorge on the other hand: solid, bullet hard nutell sandstone. Plenty of solid gear routes, and plenty of face climbs on bomber rock without gear placements (or ignored gear placements.) Same with good quality limestone. Sure you might be able to get in a cam or two in some funky pocket, but why when the rest of the route is bolted and face climbing? I've climbed all over the world, and there's plenty of choss, but there's plenty of absolutely bomber bullet hard rock. Doesn't mean choss can't be fun...but it's choss. The rest is not. PS Index rock quality is better than Yosemite. Yosemite is an alpine playground with a parking lot at the base. Alpine climbs have loose rock (see melt freeze cycles) it doesn't make them choss. |
saign charlesteinwrote: To your point you kinda can’t know it’s choss till you climb it. So choss can be classic, which is the point of the thread? I’m not saying every chossy route is good but I think people just classify something as choss call it bad because of some elite sense about what is good and bad. It think it’s more important to focus on if the rock climbing is fun and not whether it’s hyper aesthetic, pure and all this other bs. If the climb is fun, brings a favorable experience, it should be classic. King of the ruins in vantage brings me as much joy as climax control. |
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you want choss check out Glacier national park. Unless of course that is kitty litter and not choss ;) |
Trevor Taylorwrote: My attitude toward choss is pretty similar. I find that there is a minimum quality of rock required to support enjoyable climbing, but that this bar is actually pretty low. Once that bar is met (and at some crags this may involve cleaning and glue to get there), there are other aspects of the climbing that are more important to me than how solid the rock is. These include quality/uniqueness of movement, length and sustained nature of routes, impressive line, setting of crag, convenience, availability of good conditions, skin-friendliness of rock, etc. Of course it is better if the rock is bullet-hard and solid, but to me that is more of a bonus than a requirement. Quality of line, to me, is based on the combination of all these factors, so it seems silly to completely dismiss an area based only on sub-par rock. There is plenty on uninteresting or unenjoyable climbing on perfect, solid rock, and there is plenty of outstanding, classic climbing on somewhat dodgy rock. Especially so if you like overhanging sport climbing; some of my favorite walls in the US include the Pipe Dream (Maple) and the Arsenal (Rifle) - both are choss, and full of classic sport climbs. To me the term "choss" refers just to rock quality. It seems strange and incorrect to use "choss" to mean bad climbing or climbing that is undesirable for other reasons. I.e. a moss-covered wall at Index isn't choss (the rock underneath is solid), it is just mungey. And just because a crag is choss doesn't make it not a good place to climb. |
I don't know if I went to the same spot your talking about but that is the only place I have gone to climb and decided not to climb. Mostly for fear of obliterating my wife with rock. JCMwrote: Better said than what I said. To me choss is just anything that needs to be cleaned mostly because I don't have a good word that encompasses all of that and because some of the best climbs in the exits get labelled as choss when the rock is bullet hard (digitalis, yo baby, stheel fingers, shangri-la climbs). Also worth saying is a lot of the time choss is the best climbing some people have practical access to and I feel like people go out of their way to belittle other people (imagine being some poor young person in a rural place, plane tickets are a significant expense). |
Buck Riowrote: Glad I saw this on here, lol. You don't know choss until you've climbed that shitty redwing dolomite. There's definitely a special charm to it though. Nothing like pulling off those sandy jugs and pockets, standing on glass feet while pumped out of your mind. |
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I read that close call blog now, Trevor. I would just have to point out that the author was traveling territory that was not ever intended to be climbed in order to set up a top rope. That is ill-advised most anywhere. When I used to bolt routes, I always tried to clean off anything within reasonable reach of a climber on the route, including above and around the anchor. And if I saw a death block shockingly perched on the edge whilst getting my anchor established, even if it was nowhere near my route or anchor, I'd dislodge it. But then you should see what the top of a typical American Fork crag looks like. There's no end to the "death from above", you couldn't even clean it all. I suspect if most people saw what I have seen there, they would never climb there again, or at least wear a helmet at all times. But this is a fun thread. Choss is classic. We all love it. And I like what you said "you can’t know it’s choss till you climb it." |
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Classic choss...  |
saign charlesteinwrote: What once was a classic roped climb is now a classic boulder!! |
Nick Goldsmithwrote: I've climbed with you.... You do...  From the distance, it looked like 150-200 feet of 5.6-5.8 Gunks style horizontals. Up close: stacked refrigerator sized blocks, tilted back just enough to keep from falling down.. ed "one man's choss is another man's 5 star sport route...." e ps. I haven't forgotten about the clouds of black flies, fields of poison ivy, and acres of pucker bush that day, either... |
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Reviving the thread based on this: Adam Ondra agrees that choss is classic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkLpKmSRmxY Near the end of interview. Start at 30:20. "In the end, the shittier, weirder rock you have, the more interesting movements it can have." And a bit later "Aesthetics of a climbing is often overvalued, and the beauty of the movement is often undervalued." |
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Next thread - Necrobump is classic! |
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I ripped a death block off what is considered by many the best 13 in Washington.... |
Princess Puppy Lovrwrote: Did the loose jug at the start of Chronic finally rip? |
JCMwrote: It was a far left foot that only tall people would use around the fourth bolt, it made the move so less scrunchy. I am sure I will rip off the jug eventually as well. It was huge, everyone freaked out probably at least 20 lbs. |
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Climbing on flexible or loose holds is a skill any serious climber should have, and there’s only one way to earn it. I’ve stopped short of prying every hold off that isn’t bomber on many new routes to avoid scarring the rock more than is necessary, but gym spawn tend to yard on every hold without the touch acquired by adventure climbing, and declare the entire pitch to be choss if a hold flexes and gives ‘em a fright. God forbid the hold actually breaks - that means a scathing review on MP, with warnings to all their fellow urbanites, a detailed description of how big the hold was (x3), how close it came to hitting the audience, and how a fall was barely avoided. Choss is in the eye of the beholder |
