Choss is Classic

I am master choss wrangler, believe that there is an art to choss.  Having pulled a back pck size block off of a very Dormant and solid cliff ,  I declare  choss is life. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Having climbed most the routes in north bend I can assure you rock quality has almost no correlation with popularity. If you look at 5.13s on world wall you will see a theme, rock broke on someone. Specifically look at rainy day women(large rockfall), culture shock(just look at it), and king of the ruins (probably the most popular eastern Washington 12) all were objectively done on bad rock. If that’s not enough look at the most popular 5.9 in Washington, looking at that climb most wouldn’t even think that wall had worthwhile climbing. 

Additionally I could give you a list of the junk bolters and the good climbing bolters and I assure you the junk bolting climbs are more popular. Index is objectively the best climbing area in Washington but is relatively empty compared to other choss piles of Washington.

As for threats to access, Alan watts put bolts in what is pretty much mud. Took someone to put in a rebar ladder. Ten sleep literally bolting rampage on choss, they were stopped by someone manufacturing holds. I really can’t think of any of the chossiest climb areas being shut down for chossy climbs. The larger threat might honestly be people putting bolt lines into the alpine environments on bomber rock.

Point being everyone thinks their classic were not put on piles of choss because of denial. Also, aside from this thread why would you assume anything I have bolted actually meets your definition of choss or are you trying to gate keep someone you don’t know?

Wait. Aren’t you the ice cream sandwich guy???

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Having climbed most the routes in north bend I can assure you rock quality has almost no correlation with popularity. If you look at 5.13s on world wall you will see a theme, rock broke on someone. Specifically look at rainy day women(large rockfall), culture shock(just look at it), and king of the ruins (probably the most popular eastern Washington 12) all were objectively done on bad rock. If that’s not enough look at the most popular 5.9 in Washington, looking at that climb most wouldn’t even think that wall had worthwhile climbing. 

Additionally I could give you a list of the junk bolters and the good climbing bolters and I assure you the junk bolting climbs are more popular. Index is objectively the best climbing area in Washington but is relatively empty compared to other choss piles of Washington.

As for threats to access, Alan watts put bolts in what is pretty much mud. Took someone to put in a rebar ladder. Ten sleep literally bolting rampage on choss, they were stopped by someone manufacturing holds. I really can’t think of any of the chossiest climb areas being shut down for chossy climbs. The larger threat might honestly be people putting bolt lines into the alpine environments on bomber rock.

Point being everyone thinks their classic were not put on piles of choss because of denial. Also, aside from this thread why would you assume anything I have bolted actually meets your definition of choss or are you trying to gate keep someone you don’t know?

Well, Wednesday you, Daniel, and I scrubbed choss and talked about bolting choss.  I think yours routes are choss and I think mine are too hahaha. Keep on sending awesome choss brother.

Evan LovleyMeyerswrote:

Well, Wednesday you, Daniel, and I scrubbed choss and talked about bolting choss.  I think yours routes are choss and I think mine are too hahaha. Keep on sending awesome choss brother.

Dam you revealed me and my dastardly plan I stand by calling all routes in north bend choss! Yes I’m ice cream sandwhich guy!

Trevor Taylorwrote:

I have actually broken 5 gym holds the choss never ends! And two the same day! Daniel I don’t even know what you called choss but it doesn’t even matter cause it all goes!

That wall immediately north of I90 right after the eastbound exit 38 ramp. 

In retrospect, it loops like probably every wall in the exits did before Burdo showed up.

Evan LovleyMeyerswrote:

Well, Wednesday you, Daniel, and I scrubbed choss and talked about bolting choss.  I think yours routes are choss and I think mine are too hahaha. Keep on sending awesome choss brother.

True dat. Imagine those poor Yosemite climbers who can go ground up on everything. They'll never know the satisfaction of grinding out some shit climb with dozens of man-hours worth of work.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Having climbed most the routes in north bend I can assure you rock quality has almost no correlation with popularity. If you look at 5.13s on world wall you will see a theme, rock broke on someone. Specifically look at rainy day women(large rockfall), culture shock(just look at it), and king of the ruins (probably the most popular eastern Washington 12) all were objectively done on bad rock. If that’s not enough look at the most popular 5.9 in Washington, looking at that climb most wouldn’t even think that wall had worthwhile climbing. 

Additionally I could give you a list of the junk bolters and the good climbing bolters and I assure you the junk bolting climbs are more popular. Index is objectively the best climbing area in Washington but is relatively empty compared to other choss piles of Washington.

As for threats to access, Alan watts put bolts in what is pretty much mud. Took someone to put in a rebar ladder. Ten sleep literally bolting rampage on choss, they were stopped by someone manufacturing holds. I really can’t think of any of the chossiest climb areas being shut down for chossy climbs. The larger threat might honestly be people putting bolt lines into the alpine environments on bomber rock.

Point being everyone thinks their classic were not put on piles of choss because of denial. Also, aside from this thread why would you assume anything I have bolted actually meets your definition of choss or are you trying to gate keep someone you don’t know?

edit: if you go through my comment history I have offered to rebolt lots of stuff but no one wants to join me, so I feel little motivation to go out and rebolt something no one else is into.

Damn. Washington sounds like it's really chossy. 

Wait, the exits are chossy?!?!?

Easy with a short/no approach and bolts = hoards of climbers. I have climbed several road cuts in Montana that locals raved about.  Honestly, they were kinda fun and you can belay from your passenger seat.

Routes are a created experience with many ingredients. Route development sometimes feels akin to cooking. So many flavors and factors that play out and get interpreted or marketed on a bell curve.

I think the “art” of developing popular climbing, is to know the audience, and bake a dish to their liking. 

Given the explosion of the sport, I would bet 80 percent of climbers  are under 4 years of active climbing and most don’t like walking, placing gear or facing death on the weekend. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Index is objectively the best climbing area in Washington but is relatively empty compared to other choss piles of Washington

The parking lot (and road outside of it) sure fills up on the weekends during summer, though. Probably less traffic than the exits because it's mostly trad and takes a little longer to get to. I'd argue the rock quality there is great, but it has its own kind of choss of moss/dirt from the forest trying to reclaim the walls. 

Jeff Macwrote:

 "but it has its own kind of choss of moss/dirt from the forest trying to reclaim the walls."

Thats kinda my point you can argue that even the most solid rock can be choss.

Adam Wood wrote:

Routes are a created experience with many ingredients. Route development sometimes feels akin to cooking. So many flavors and factors that play out and get interpreted or marketed on a bell curve.

I think the “art” of developing popular climbing, is to know the audience, and bake a dish to their liking. 

Exactly, obviously if the rock is so bad that people can die on a route after its been cleaned thats less than ideal. But the actual rock quality is really only an ingredient when people tend to think its the entire course. I think this is apparent in the fact Massey put up most the powerhouse wall routes in vantage and also put up indextascy. Burdo put up that tower in index/rainy day women and then also put up flyboys/a never ending list of obscure climbs no one likes in the exits. 

I also think the next trail day in Index should be to widen highway 2.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I also think the next trail day in Index should be to widen highway 2.

God yes please 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Choss can totally be classic and I think there are a lot of issues with calling something bad without actually trying it. 

Point 1: I haven't been to the gym in a long long while but I don't think there was anything more annoying than meeting someone who seemed stoked about climbing, just to try to get that person to climb outside. That person would deflect on going outside because its just "choss." If you actually like rock climbing maybe going rock climbing should be something you do or at least try it. I think the main reason people call something choss is to stroke their own ego. They call it choss because they think they are too good to be bothered with it. Like if you consider yourself a rock climber maybe if your given a choice between the worst climb in the world and netflix, you should still prefer climbing. If it is actually worth so little effort to climb, why would anyone even expend then energy to call it choss. To summarize, most people calling stuff choss are just stroking their own ego.

Point 2: People love Choss. World Wall, Vantage, Smith, Wild Iris, the red, etc.. All require quite a bit of cleaning, Smith in particular I have pulled/pushed 6 holds off one climb in an attempt (if you read the ice cream thread you would know I am thicc). So when someone implies they are too good to climb at their local crag and go to smith, the real reason they don't climb at their local area has nothing to do with it being chossy. 

Point 3: Everything is choss. Next time your at a climbing area that you don't think as chossy, look around you will probably still see a good amount of tallus. Or if your in Index look in the woods for trees that exploded from trundling. If your in the Washington alpine wander off route for a bit. A hiker literally died in Yosemite from rockfall. A 5.14 crusher died in Squamish on a 5.6 due to rock breaking. 

Point 4: I think when you ask someone what their most meaningful experience was there is almost no correlation with that and the actual rock quality.

Point 5: The eventual responses in this thread calling me a gumby and responding with something like a one word "no." If you disagree it should be pretty easy to write a sentence that actually makes a point. However, I expect a lot of stuff disparaging me/other climbers which will just validate point one.

Edit: Point 6, as discussed earlier everything is choss. If your issue is you hate rock pulling off or dieing I would say that is more of having an issue with safety than with it being chossy. 

Meh... 2/10

People rave about Seneca Rocks being one of the best trad destinations in the country. So yeah, choss is defintely classic

saign charlesteinwrote:

Meh... 2/10

So far no one has actually proved why choss can't/isn't classic and most people agree with me. I genuinely believe that in most cases when people don't want to climb something because its "chossy," they are just flexing their ego in that they think they are to good for a climb.

Lone Pinewrote:

People rave about Seneca Rocks being one of the best trad destinations in the country. So yeah, choss is defintely classic

Hey, you watch your mouth talking shit about my local crumbling choss fin...I mean premier trad venue.

Wouldn't have it any other way.  My best memories and most satisfying routes have been on "choss"  Deep in the Wind Rivers:

Must be that I climb some real heaps because I see Seneca as being  very clean and for the most part pretty solid. certainly much more solid than Cannon. 

Wild Iris is not choss.

LL2wrote:

Wild Iris is not choss.

Not sure if sarcasm. I love wild iris I’m going back this year but when I went for a run out there the undeveloped rock barely looked to meet the definition of rock. Given that it’s an older climbing area the rock seems way cleaner than it actually was.

In sinks I ripped off a fist sized rock on a newish route.

Also there is this story lloydclimbingblog.blogspot.…