Campfires in the West

Marc801 Cwrote:

Not a big fan of these threads where everyone shouts the same thing at no one, but even less of a fan where someone from the comfort of their keyboard says do something.

How do you propose we go about getting a permanent ban on all campfires on all federal and state lands?

I don't give a fuck. That's up to you people who care about things.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

I don't give a fuck. That's up to you people who care about things.

Do you really want to be known on MP as a sociopath?

Marc801 Cwrote:

Do you really want to be known on MP as a sociopath?

I'd rather not be known as a liar.

I'm completely serious, I could care less about campfire regulations.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

I'd rather not be known as a liar.

I'm completely serious, I could care less about campfire regulations.

The fact that you sought out an online thread to participate in on the subject indicates that you're lying about caring less. 

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

I was bored. Then I saw it fell into a category that I did care about, keyboard warriors circlejerking themselves about their self-righteous hatred of campfires without any action to back up all their talk.

   

Do you care about losing areas to climb due to wildfires? Where do you get the assumption that there's no action? I back it up all the time in person, and also in trying to get a more systematic change. Your desperation to come across as somehow above it all, should be embarrassing. You should do some serious self analysis either way... you've got issues. 

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

I was bored. Then I saw it fell into a category that I did care about, keyboard warriors circlejerking themselves about their self-righteous hatred of campfires without any action to back up all their talk.

   

You're starting to seem determined to make yourself unliked. That's strikes me as pretty sad, kid. 

H.

Brandon Rwrote:

Do you care about losing areas to climb due to wildfires? Where do you get the assumption that there's no action? I back it up all the time in person, and also in trying to get a more systematic change. Your desperation to come across as somehow above it all, should be embarrassing. You should do some serious self analysis either way... you've got issues. 

Deleted my post cause it was unnecessarily rude and so I could reply to this.

Look Brandon, I agree with you, and I'm not annoyed at you for starting the thread, but seriously, what purpose does it serve? You make a long PSA about campfires being bad and we have entirely complete agreement from everyone who posted. Thus it's just a place for people to rant. Sure maybe you tell people off for having fires, or even lobby for bans in dry areas. (Not like those would be remotely effective for all the camplifestyle people who wanna have campfires anyway.) 

Even if you are trying to help the situation IRL, the smart move would have been suggesting ways for people to do that. Instead we have your declaration that 'maybe someone will read this thread and change their mind.' first of all no one changes their mind based on a forum thread. Second the demographic of mtn prj is the wrong one for this PSA, as it's generally serious climbers, many trad climbers, who are likely decent outdoorsmen and know when campfires are a bad idea.

Now we're talking about wildfires and losing climbing areas, which obviously I don't want. Campfires are not even close to the main cause of wildfires as Jonas pointed out. In WA it's either lightning strikes or careless arson like cigarette butts and shit - but often lightning striking the remote areas far away from people to report or control is what starts the big ones. So I think that claim is misdirected as well. 

I apologize for my other posts as they were certainly rude. But the sentiment still stands I think this is a lame and unnecessary thread with a disappointing amount of people who are all type and no action.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Deleted my post cause it was unnecessarily rude and so I could reply to this.

Look Brandon, I agree with you, and I'm not annoyed at you for starting the thread, but seriously, what purpose does it serve? You make a long PSA about campfires being bad and we have entirely complete agreement from everyone who posted. Thus it's just a place for people to rant. Sure maybe you tell people off for having fires, or even lobby for bans in dry areas. (Not like those would be remotely effective for all the camplifestyle people who wanna have campfires anyway.) 

Even if you are trying to help the situation IRL, the smart move would have been suggesting ways for people to do that. Instead we have your declaration that 'maybe someone will read this thread and change their mind.' first of all no one changes their mind based on a forum thread. Second the demographic of mtn prj is the wrong one for this PSA, as it's generally serious climbers, many trad climbers, who are likely decent outdoorsmen and know when campfires are a bad idea.

Now we're talking about wildfires and losing climbing areas, which obviously I don't want. Campfires are not even close to the main cause of wildfires as Jonas pointed out. In WA it's either lightning strikes or careless arson like cigarette butts and shit - but often lightning striking the remote areas far away from people to report or control is what starts the big ones. So I think that claim is misdirected as well. 

I apologize for my other posts as they were certainly rude. But the sentiment still stands I think this is a lame and unnecessary thread with a disappointing amount of people who are all type and no action.

Well, at the very least, it serves more of a purpose than any of your previous additions to it. But now that we've established that you do actually care, and that you're just underwhelmed by my (and other's) meager actions, why don't you propose those improvements we could make instead of just criticizing what we have mentioned? And I did point out in my original post that lightning was the main ignition source of most fires, BTW. If only 1 out of 20 fires could be prevented (like the Caldor Fire for instance) by more aggressive camp fire restrictions (or even just convincing someone that they don't really need a camp fire in the summer), that's better than 0 out of 20, isn't it? Especially when that one fire burns your favorite climbing locale. I also don't think your assumptions about who's reading MP, who's lighting irresponsible camp fires, and even the exact causes of human-caused wildfires are anything more than assumptions. I'd be happy to read some stats though if you care to back them up. I am happy to see that you've changed your approach to a more civil one though. 

Do they state how many are sustained because of their own mismanagement of forests?

Also, I said in WA...

It seems like common sense that campfires lead to the wildfires. Unfortunately, it's also common sense that the longer fall is worse for gear and bodies than the high fall factor fall. Common sense is like that.

Todd and Gargano are on the right track; this is about what the climate is doing. Not about the campfire next to you. We chose to drive into the carwash with the windows down, and now you're yelling at the kiddos in the back for spilling their water bottle. The question isn't who started a fire, it's "was it going to burn anyway?" The climate limitations on fire regimes are changing. And when we stand by our 20mpg rig and point at the dude with the campfire, we're missing the real picture.

Take caughtinside's link, for instance. If you just read the news release, or just the abstract of the excellent paper, you'd think it was all about human ignition. If you read the actual paper, you see that it's prolonging the fire season. Aka spreading out the inevitable burns over time. Is that a bad or a good thing?

I appreciate the 'bad campfires' take seems obvious. Fire bad; make less fire. But, like many things that are obvious, it may also be wrong. This could be a worthwhile discussion here, lots of people to reach who spend time out of doors. But "blame the guy with the campfire," is too easy and unconsidered a take. We can do better, and need to do better. Otherwise we're always chasing the flashy thing right in front of us and not addressing problems.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

When camping solo I use a small propane catalytic heater when sitting outside at night, its just enough to take the edge off.   With friends when climbing in the desert we always bring wood and have a nice fire at night, a propane heater just doesn't have the same heating or social effect.   I don't like campfires in the mountains and will destroy fire rings when I find them but I do most of my climbing in remote areas of the desert these days anyway.  Until the hammer comes down and says absolutely no fires I'll continue to responsibly enjoy my desert campfires.

Yes, there is nothing like a spectacular fire while out enjoying the winter desert. One of the rigs must be devoted to carry the wood. I had a crane come in last year on my property and fell a 80ft pine. That wood is well seasoned and ready for for those chilly nights somewhere out in the Mojave, Colorado or Sonoran deserts...

caughtinside wrote:

You fail to draw any conclusions.  You acknowledge 1. that climate is an issue and 2. that the way our forests have been managed has led to higher danger, but somehow conclude that we should continue to keep having campfires? Which are known to be responsible for some amount of fires?  Weird.

Now you're getting it! I am exactly saying that we should not oversimplify things like points one and two, and we should not then jump to conclusions based on our simplified understanding. It is 'weird;' I get that. And it ruins a good circle jerk. But it's still worth it.

Just follow the regulations. If there are fire restrictions, be a good citizen (I.e don’t be a POS) and don’t have a fire.

If I’m following the rules and someone approaches me and goes Karen on me about not-having a fire blah blah blah, I will promptly hand them a spoon to eat my butt.

Mark Kusnirwrote:

Just follow the regulations. If there are fire restrictions, be a good citizen (I.e don’t be a POS) and don’t have a fire.

If I’m following the rules and someone approaches me and goes Karen on me about not-having a fire blah blah blah, I will promptly hand them a spoon to eat my butt.

You know, this attitude is kind of the problem. A couple of months ago I watched a couple of yahoos start a “camp fire” in the middle of the afternoon on a 95 degree day with 25 mph gusts. The FS posted fire danger was “high,” not “very high,” which would have resulted a fire ban. I did ask them to put it out, which to their credit they did (they left that very afternoon). They weren’t breaking any regulations, but having a fire in those conditions was absolutely irresponsible.  

I don’t know about where you are from, but in NM climbers’ campfires caused two catastrophic fires that closed climbing areas for years. In one, Last Chance/Sitting Bull did reopen to climbing eventually, but when Cochitti Mesa burned, the fire destroyed most of the climbable rock through spalling and destroyed much of the hardware. Cochitti was one of the first sport climbing areas in the US, and likely will not see climbing again. 

Frank Steinwrote:

You know, this attitude is kind of the problem. A couple of months ago I watched a couple of yahoos start a “camp fire” in the middle of the afternoon on a 95 degree day with 25 mph gusts. The FS posted fire danger was “high,” not “very high,” which would have resulted a fire ban. I did ask them to put it out, which to their credit they did (they left that very afternoon). They weren’t breaking any regulations, but having a fire in those conditions was absolutely irresponsible.  

I don’t know about where you are from, but in NM climbers’ campfires caused two catastrophic fires that closed climbing areas for years. In one, Last Chance/Sitting Bull did reopen to climbing eventually, but when Cochitti Mesa burned, the fire destroyed most of the climbable rock through spalling and destroyed much of the hardware. Cochitti was one of the first sport climbing areas in the US, and likely will not see climbing again. 

you would’ve been handed a spoon

https://www.campingworld.com/camco-portable-propane-little-red-campfire-34763.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=%7bCampaign%7d&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjo2JBhCRARIsAFG667UEL5BJpmGfA16RR2Nw7fK7NczBTgPwNty0CWkENClGzEKwej_Lnr8aAnF7EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

M Appelquist wrote:

Seems like a substantial number of large California fires are started by electricity (and lightening). Perhaps a ban on electricity in all rural areas.

I have felt strongly about this since the New Deal.

But that is not as cool as it is to ban camp fires! People feel good when they get to tell people how to live...

M Appelquist wrote:

Seems like a substantial number of large California fires are started by electricity (and lightening). Perhaps a ban on electricity in all rural areas.

I have felt strongly about this since the New Deal.

I hope this is sarcasm. 

M Appelquist wrote:

Seems like a substantial number of large California fires are started by electricity (and lightening). Perhaps a ban on electricity in all rural areas.

I have felt strongly about this since the New Deal.

For serious though, PG&E is a huge problem.

Brandon Rwrote:

Don't fucking have one. You'd think it'd be obvious, with all the smoke in the air, the signs posted, and the fact that way too many joints have already burned through climbing areas, but nearly every time I go out I see some idiots with a blunt (and yes, I do confront them regularly). Families decked out in the Leafly catalog, rednecks shooting their cheap reggie, tech bros on their first sherm trip, and even climbers who think that they can have a bong rip in 25 mph gusts of wind. And even if starting a new volcano bag wasn't a risk, with all the smoke we're already breathing, nobody wants to be breathing more from your shotgun toke. Other things you'd think would be obvious: Don't throw your chonger butt out your window (even if you are a dirty human being who doesn't care about littering). Don't shoot dabs in hot, dry conditions. Don't light cbd infused fatties. Don't have gender reveal parties with lavender crucifix shaped mega joints. And less obvious, make sure the lighter connected to your lasso aren't dragging on the road. Yeah, I know that most of the recent bowls have been started by cheap bic lighters, but plenty (85%) have been started by humans (of the stupid variety) too, and some of them might even read mountain project threads. 

https://www.nps.gov/articles/wildfire-causes-and-evaluation.htm

Lo and behold, look what I just found: https://www.change.org/p/u-s-forest-service-temporarily-ban-campfires-in-federal-camp-grounds?redirect=false

man, I didn't know you felt so strongly against weed usage.