Campfires in the West

Drew Alldredge wrote:

The overly accessorized Jeep/camp fire/porterhouse steak/single malt/Cuban Cigar/Peaky Blinder hairdo crowd has been a real issue in our local mountains.

Excuse you. Whats wrong with a peaky blinder hairdo?? Last time I checked the only hairstyle that could cause a fire is from those weirdos who use a blowtorch to cut the hair, and even then they would need to be actively getting their hair cut. I also take issue with your badmouthing a nice single malt. 

JonasMRwrote:

It's my understanding that fewer ignition events will mean fewer fires in an area that is "ignition limited." But I thought much of the Western US is not ignition limited. In other words, humans start a lot of fires. But if they didn't, the same area would burn from a lightning strike later in the year. Or maybe it'd burn next year. Point being there's enough ignition around that wild fires are "fuel limited" (how dry the forests are) in much of the West.

Fuel-limited systems and climate-limited systems refer to fire regimes that are characteristic to a given region. I couldn't find any information on "ignition limited" systems/areas.  In short, climate-limited systems have big fuels, but the climate prevents big burns - think PNW. Fuel-limited systems refer to regions that are drier and burn frequently and thus have less built up fuel load - unless routine fire has been suppressed. What we've recently been seeing throughout the west is the result of decades of fire suppression paired with climate change (lower snowpack, rainfall, warmer temperatures) which leads to these historically climate-limited systems losing their tolerance to stressors that cause fire (lightning, human ignitions, etc.). "It could take 20-30 years to see global temperatures stabilize, according to the IPCC Working Group I report, Climate Change 2021: the Physical Science Basis" ( ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/). That means we'll continue to see these big fires. 

So the whole point here is to look at these big fuel loaded forests and start to rethink how we interact with them. Creating practical limitations on campfires makes a lot of sense. Campfires are just another ignition source that these forests are no longer resistant to. Closing forests during high risk periods makes sense, too. This past June, all of the national forests in Arizona were closed due to drought. It wasn't any fun, but its a good way to minimize risk when there's more and more people recreating (acting with and without responsibility) and putting these major forests at risk. Sure many of them will burn, but with fires getting bigger and more difficult to control, it's hard to argue for unrestricted use of these spaces when human involvement presents a real risk to the future of our natural places. 

A quick read from a professor at UNR  https://www.niskanencenter.org/megafires-climate-change-or-land-management/

Drew Alldredge wrote:

The overly accessorized Sprinter Van/camp fire/porterhouse steak/single malt/Cuban Cigar/Peaky Blinder hairdo/Crash Pad crowd has been a real issue in our local mountains.

Fixed it for you

JonasMRwrote:

But I'm not sure fewer campfires would mean fewer forest fires. It's my understanding that fewer ignition events will mean fewer fires in an area that is "ignition limited." But I thought much of the Western US is not ignition limited. In other words, humans start a lot of fires. But if they didn't, the same area would burn from a lightning strike later in the year. Or maybe it'd burn next year. Point being there's enough ignition around that wild fires are "fuel limited" (how dry the forests are) in much of the West.

I don't think so.  Most fires in SoCal are started by careless people.  Same in the Sierra.    Possibly more logging would be a good idea.

I am pro campfire. If you do it responsibly and county doesn't have fire ban. It uses up fuel that would ignite otherwise in a forest fire. Also it connects people together through light and heat and cooking, and connects us to our ancestral heritage, I mean a campfire is classic! Do it responsibly though. 

Not a big fan of campfires, but even less a fan of these threads where everyone shouts the same thing at no one.

If you care so much, go DO something about it.

caughtinside wrote:

We need to make the cultural shift.  Camp fires have long been a part of camping - I've enjoyed hundreds over my life.  I think people want to keep that going It is crazy how much people want to have fires though.  70 degrees and the sun is out? have a fire.  Air already choked with smoke? have a fire.  Yosemite is often terribly smoky with the number of campers who need to have 2 fires a day.  

I made that cultural shift 40 yrs ago when I first started camping in Yosemite Valley and Tuolumne Meadows campgrounds. I really have a hatred of the whole campfire culture.  I immediately learned they are bad for cooking, don’t keep you warm unless you’re melting your clothes, and are terrible for air quality.  17 yrs ago I bought an RV and was done with tent camping. Amazingly enough, people in RV campgrounds with full hookups and full kitchens and elec or propane heat will STILL make campfires.  It’s demented. 

Marshmallows. There's the crux, incinerating marshmallows.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Not a big fan of campfires, but even less a fan of these threads where everyone shouts the same thing at no one.

If you care so much, go DO something about it.

Not a big fan of these threads where everyone shouts the same thing at no one, but even less of a fan where someone from the comfort of their keyboard says do something.

How do you propose we go about getting a permanent ban on all campfires on all federal and state lands?

Old lady Hwrote:

Marshmallows. There's the crux, incinerating marshmallows.

I've never understood the fascination. I also rather dislike marshmallows.

If I'm on the road climbing for any extended period of time I definitely don't want to reek of campfire. 

Marc801 Cwrote:

I've never understood the fascination. I also rather dislike marshmallows.

It's certainly part of scouts and stuff like that, from my childhood. But, I can't even remember if I've had a marshmallow in this millenium.

Well, okay, Rocky Road ice cream. ;-)

I confess, I've built tiny fires a couple times this past season, just enough and just long enough to cook up brats or something like that. 

When all you have is a tent, then yeah, for some heat, but that's shoulder seasons, not now.

It's still not campfires topping the list of human caused fires, I don't think. It's a whole range of anything that can spark. There was a scary fire started near Almo this year, put out very quickly, and, luckily, wasn't where any buildings were.

It was started, ironically, when a roadside mower hit a rock and sparked.

Best, Helen

Old lady Hwrote:

It's certainly part of scouts and stuff like that, from my childhood.

Never a scout. My parents asked if I was interested - I was until I learned about the uniforms and rules and the stupid merit badge requirements.

 I confess, I've built tiny fires a couple times this past season, just enough and just long enough to cook up brats or something like that.

I do everything on a propane dual burner Coleman.

 When all you have is a tent, then yeah, for some heat, but that's shoulder seasons, not now.

The heat from a fire in that application is so incredibly fleeting - there are better ways to get and stay warm.

It's still not campfires topping the list of human caused fires, I don't think. It's a whole range of anything that can spark.

Yes, but there have been significant fires that were caused by campfires - the current Caldor fire that shut down El Dorado NF and is threatening Placerville and Pollock Pines is one of them.

 There was a scary fire started near Almo this year, put out very quickly, and, luckily, wasn't where any buildings were.

It was started, ironically, when a roadside mower hit a rock and sparked.

Like the one we just had in Parleys Canyon - burning fragments from a malfunctioning catalytic converter started 4 separate roadside fires that eventually merged into one.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/8/17/22629309/parleys-canyon-fire-crews-fear-blaze-could-spread-very-rapidly-in-storm-wildfire-evacuations

I love a good campfire in the desert in a cold winter night.   A steak cooked over hot coals is awesome and I love the smell of smoke from a fire but then again I was a fireman for 30 years so maybe there is a connection.   

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

I love a good campfire in the desert in a cold winter night.   A steak cooked over hot coals is awesome and I love the smell of smoke from a fire but then again I was a fireman for 30 years so maybe there is a connection.   

LOL, Kevin, yes I bet there is a deep emotional connection.  My Dad was was a heating and air conditioning contractor and had a couple of fuel oil delivery trucks.  So he smelled of it frequently when he came home.  I still love the smell, but it doesn't mean it's good for me!

Kind of like cocaine. ^

Sadly people are just so damn stupid, no matter how “smart” they may be.
we need to continue the public shaming when we encounter these people putting OUR lands at risk. PG&E included. Everyone needs to watch FIRE.POWER.MONEY series on YouTube from ABC10 Sacramento. 

Kris said "the smoke always blows in my direction."

Which confirms what I've heard for years that it blows toward the most beautiful one around the fire.

When camping solo I use a small propane catalytic heater when sitting outside at night, its just enough to take the edge off.   With friends when climbing in the desert we always bring wood and have a nice fire at night, a propane heater just doesn't have the same heating or social effect.   I don't like campfires in the mountains and will destroy fire rings when I find them but I do most of my climbing in remote areas of the desert these days anyway.  Until the hammer comes down and says absolutely no fires I'll continue to responsibly enjoy my desert campfires.

5SevenKevin Morriswrote:

Campfires cause forest fires. Ban them!

Also, Most wildfires are started by firefighters. 

BAN FIREFIGHTERS!

If you're just kidding around, never-mind, hard to tell on a forum.

If not, where do you get that? Inquiring minds need to know...