Flying Buttress (aka Guide to Surviving an Aggressive Manchild in the Alpine)

Nothing worse than a slower party that wont let the faster party through because of their pride.  Ive been in the faster and slower party, and it always works best if people work together to get the faster party out in front.  I hate that feeling of having the next group right on your ass the whole climb, so usually much nicer to let them through.  Obviously weather and rock quality can change the situation.  

Sounds like a bummer of a day for OP, and like the raging dude was a little out of line; but as someone up thread said, kind of just a failure from all parties out there that day for not communicating effectively and making it work.  

Free Spiritwrote:

There was no reason to call out other climbers by name on MP just so she could spray about how she's an "alpine" climber now. The story could have been told without personally shaming anyone. Also, just wait until SHE has a 4-month-old baby at home, she gets ONE day to go climbing while her friend watches the baby, and some youngster with a head of steam starts following their ass up the route they are already on. Karma is a bitch, and the climbing community is small.

There are two sides to this story. I'm not close personal friends with Stephanie, but I see her FB posts, and she posted about a beautiful day in the mountains with her husband, thankful for the opportunity to get out. Now someone wants to come on here and start a debate about "passing in the alpine." That's the game!!! You could have chosen a different route.  But at least if you need to come on MP to tell everyone you alpine climb - tell it without trying to diss on people personally. 

As I mentioned, the climbing community is very small at the end of the day. I don't ever want to make enemies. You might be asking Patrick for a job someday. 

This is the most rediculous thing I’ve read on here since I found out Tradiban has kids.

If this isn’t a trollI, I noticed you didn’t deny the agro behavior out of Patrick. Who the fuck would want to work with Patrick?
Why would you pick a trade route if this was your ONE day out…?

If this experience was typical of my climbing days, I would take up canoe salalom. 

Thou Shall Not Pass!

Free Spiritwrote:

The Ships Prow is RIGHT THERE with tons of 5.8-5.10 3 to 4 pitch routes. It's not the classic Flying Buttress, but you can definitely still climb in the mountains that day. I don't head up into the alpine without 2-4 objectives in an area anymore. Plan to have a Plan B!  (I still haven't climbed the Barb yet because I'm not willing to climb below people, and I keep missing it by minutes. So I've climbed Sykes 4 times now because it's better than climbing below someone.)

When I did the Buttress a few years ago we got stuck behind a slow party, so I climbed a harder thin crack line far to the right to go around them and rejoined the route two pitches higher. I ended up pulling on nuts to get through, but an hour and a half later, we were above them on the ledge system. To this day, that has been one of my most fun and memorable days in the park. I never would have gotten on that tiny pink seam if there weren't noobs on our route. 

So if I understand this post correctly:

You won't climb an alpine route if there is anyone above you on the entire route.  (That's fine, although it's not surprising you haven't made it up a route like the Barb, which is routinely climbed by multiple parties per day.  That's entirely your call, and while you're in what I believe is a small minority in seeming to think "one party per day" is a reasonable way to do popular alpine climbs, it's unquestionably true that climbing below other parties, especially in places like RMNP with substantial loose rock, presents danger, some of which can't be avoided.)

You're also OK with passing another party that has already started up a route by aiding through a tougher variation and then subjecting that party to the danger of your being above them?

I suppose if the goal is to minimize your own risk without regard to the risks you impose on others, that's fine.  But then so is a faster party passing a slower party.  (I suppose one could counter that it's then OK for the slower party to threaten the faster party to prevent the pass, which is perhaps your unstated point?)

Back to the original post:  I've climbed plenty of multipitch routes with parties above me and also with parties below me.  It's never ideal, but it's commonly done (I'd say it's commonly done by the overwhelming percentage of active climbers, but I can't prove that).  Usually it works out fine, occasionally it doesn't, and sometimes the problem is complete incompetence by one or more of the involved climbers.  If I were the OP, I'm not sure I'd learn much of a lesson here: I think dealing with complete incompetents is rare enough (or usually manageable enough) that I wouldn't necessarily change my behavior and just chalk it up to luck of the draw.  I suppose if it keeps happening, at some point I'd say I'm just going to do something else--as others have said, take up bouldering, or climbing with a physically imposing tough guy to scare away the noobs, hard to say!

Free Spiritwrote:

The Ships Prow is RIGHT THERE with tons of 5.8-5.10 3 to 4 pitch routes. It's not the classic Flying Buttress, but you can definitely still climb in the mountains that day. I don't head up into the alpine without 2-4 objectives in an area anymore. Plan to have a Plan B!  (I still haven't climbed the Barb yet because I'm not willing to climb below people, and I keep missing it by minutes. So I've climbed Sykes 4 times now because it's better than climbing below someone.)

When I did the Buttress a few years ago we got stuck behind a slow party, so I climbed a harder thin crack line far to the right to go around them and rejoined the route two pitches higher. I ended up pulling on nuts to get through, but an hour and a half later, we were above them on the ledge system. To this day, that has been one of my most fun and memorable days in the park. I never would have gotten on that tiny pink seam if there weren't noobs on our route. 

Just a thought: you've defined climbing below another party as too dangerous for yourself. Do you feel like it's ethical to pass someone, as you describe doing above, who has made the extra effort to get up there early because they share your concerns? Did you ask permission to pass them using this alternate route? 

Edit: apparently pfwein was having a similar thought at the same moment. 

pfwein Weinbergwrote:

So if I understand this post correctly:

You won't climb an alpine route if there is anyone above you on the entire route.  (That's fine, although it's not surprising you haven't made it up a route like the Barb, which is routinely climbed by multiple parties per day.  That's entirely your call, and while you're in what I believe is a small minority in seeming to think "one party per day" is a reasonable way to do popular alpine climbs, it's unquestionably true that climbing below other parties, especially in places like RMNP with substantial loose rock, presents danger, some of which can't be avoided.)

You're also OK with passing another party that has already started up a route by aiding through a tougher variation and then subjecting that party to the danger of your being above them?

I suppose if the goal is to minimize your own risk without regard to the risks you impose on others, that's fine.  But then so is a faster party passing a slower party.  (I suppose one could counter that it's then OK for the slower party to threaten the faster party to prevent the pass, which is perhaps your unstated point?)

Back to the original post:  I've climbed plenty of multipitch routes with parties above me and also with parties below me.  It's never ideal, but it's commonly done (I'd say it's commonly done by the overwhelming percentage of active climbers, but I can't prove that).  Usually it works out fine, occasionally it doesn't, and sometimes the problem is complete incompetence by one or more of the involved climbers.  If I were the OP, I'm not sure I'd learn much of a lesson here: I think dealing with complete incompetents is rare enough (or usually manageable enough) that I wouldn't necessarily change my behavior and just chalk it up to luck of the draw.  I suppose if it keeps happening, at some point I'd say I'm just going to do something else--as others have said, take up bouldering, or climbing with a physically imposing tough guy to scare away the noobs, hard to say!

But the baby! Think about the baby!

I appreciate the information from everyone as I am upping my alpine game. So it seems like it comes down to good judgement and proper communication?  Have yall been in any scenarios where you know it's not safe for a party to pass due to x , y, or z reasons and were able to communicate that to said party? Or is that actually a rare event, so not even a thing? Are there times when that's happened to you as a potential passing party? If so, were they correct or just unaware there was no danger?

Some folks seem to be interpreting this story as being about passing etiquette. But this has little to do with whether or not Rose and Story should have passed or not. It's about someone using physical violence and unacceptable language mid-route, in the alpine.

To start, I don't think Rose and Story violated any etiquette rules. They let Patrick and Stephanie go first. But Patrick gave up and belayed mid-pitch. If you can't climb the route from belay to belay, you forfeit your place in line and should graciously let the next party pass you.

But even if there was any ambiguity to that etiquette question, there is absolutely no excuse for what happened next. There is no room in our sport for calling someone a bitch. There is no room in our sport for shoving someone. There's no room for threatening to pull people off the mountain. And there's no room in our sport for unclipping someone else's directional without permission. There's no excuse for any of that.

Patrick's behavior was unacceptable, full stop. And that would be true even if Rose and Story unfairly tried to pass, or climbed too close behind them (which, from the facts we have, they did not). This isn't a story about whether Rose and Story did the right thing or not. This is a story about how Patrick, without question, did the wrong thing. 

Nkane 1wrote:

This isn't a story about whether Rose and Story did the right thing or not. This is a story about how Patrick, without question, did the wrong thing. 

I disagree. My impression is that everyone agrees Patrick was wrong for what he did. The question, or controversy, is whether Rose and Story were also wrong, or not.

HughCwrote:

I appreciate the information from everyone as I am upping my alpine game. So it seems like it comes down to good judgement and proper communication?  Have yall been in any scenarios where you know it's not safe for a party to pass due to x , y, or z reasons and were able to communicate that to said party? Or is that actually a rare event, so not even a thing? Are there times when that's happened to you as a potential passing party? If so, were they correct or just unaware there was no danger?

Yes, I have said to people "I don't want to be climbing below anyone on this rock (choss)".  This has happened to me twice on the ground when we were already starting up P1, and some other group showed up itching to pass us immediately (My party was ready to move fast anyway).  Both times they kind of sat around looking bummed and complaining a bit, but then found other routes to climb.   Open and friendly communication is the key for these interactions IMO.  

B Pwrote:

This is the most rediculous thing I’ve read on here since I found out Tradiban has kids.

How many kids do you have?

B Pwrote:

This is the most rediculous thing I’ve read on here since I found out Tradiban has kids.

Remember that etiquette is regional, so a national forum like MP may not be the best place to get informed on the subject. In Colorado passing is normal, but it might not be everywhere. As with all things etiquette related, if you're not local consider the possibility that the local etiquette differs from what you know. I've sometimes asked about points of confusion at the local climbing shop or guides office, and that's been helpful, not only because the OG behind the counter is often reliable, but also because if a particular subject is touchy you can read the subtext better in person than in a digital conversation.

It often seems though that climbing etiquette just comes down to might-is-right. This was certainly the presumption in many of my posts, because I think it defacto is how things work in the Front Range. However, if I can go a bit off topic instead, we make this community what it is, and how much we are willing to accommodate strangers is a big part of that. When everyone just looks out for their own interests (which is what claiming your rights basically comes down to, whether its your right to pass the slow, or whatever) it basically means that you acknowledge no community. Community is characterized by accommodation and mutual interdependencies, not by rights. Rights are what you appeal to when community breaks down and you're getting ready to sue people. Maybe consider that first before considering whether or not you have a 'right to pass' or whatever.

It's also worth mentioning that even somewhere that's hugely overcrowded with climbers like the Front Range can still feel like a small world. The last eight times that I've gone out (a mix of weekday, weekend and afterwork cragging in the front country and in the park), including just this morning, I've run into friends and acquaintances on the trail, on routes, on neighboring routes or at the parking lot. If the notion of a 'climbing community' has any value to you, maybe consider being a steward of the notion, even if that means giving someone right of way when you could take it by force. Community is definitely achievable with the right stewardship, but is lost without it.

Bruno Schullwrote:

I think this all lead to a dust up in the Canadian Rockies some years back, prompting Will Gadd and others to issue a kind of code of conduct for ice climbing.

Speaking of nice and welcoming communities, a dust up in the Canadian Rockies? What does that even look like? I can't imagine Canadians in a fight outside of a hockey rink.

Patrick before getting passed...

Seriously, sounds borderline criminal from the OP. Would be interesting to hear their side of the story, though if it would be anything close to what OP posted, I bet they would have to make something up. 

HughCwrote:

Have yall been in any scenarios where you know it's not safe for a party to pass due to x , y, or z reasons and were able to communicate that to said party? Or is that actually a rare event, so not even a thing? Are there times when that's happened to you as a potential passing party?

Every route is different.  I've sat on a ledge waiting for two hours on Hallett for a slow party to finish the last pitches.  I've also simul-climbed past literally dozens of parties on alpine routes in the Park.  

Personally, I feel that the safety concerns folks have expressed about being above or below another party are overblown.  Yes, on ice climbs and notorious chosspiles, climbing above or below another party is not cool.  That said, multiple parties climb the North Chimney every day and serious accidents due to rockfall are very rare.  Be careful and courteous when above someone else.  That's easy.

The dangers of being on a route late in the day (potentially in a storm, out of water/food/daylight) are much more significant.  And on busy bigwall trade routes there are simply so many slow parties that passing happens multiple times per day.

So yes, it is situational, but ultimately being there first does not give anyone exclusive rights to a piece of public land for a day/however long it takes to climb a route.

My impression is that with Rose and Story there was a verbal and physical assault, bullying, and gender dynamics at play.  Ultimately hindsight being 20/20 they likely should have passed decisively right at the start, but they were trying to respect another party who clearly wasn't reciprocating that respect.  

Regardless, there is no place for verbal abuse, name-calling, physical assault, et cetera in climbing, especially on popular alpine routes in a place where speed does often equate to safety.

Philip Magistrowrote:

Every route is different.  I've sat on a ledge waiting for two hours on Hallett for a slow party to finish the last pitches.  I've also simul-climbed past literally dozens of parties on alpine routes in the Park.  

Personally, I feel that the safety concerns folks have expressed about being above or below another party are overblown.  Yes, on ice climbs and notorious chosspiles, climbing above or below another party is not cool.  That said, multiple parties climb the North Chimney every day and serious accidents due to rockfall are very rare.  Be careful and courteous when above someone else.  That's easy.

The dangers of being on a route late in the day (potentially in a storm, out of water/food/daylight) are much more significant.  And on busy bigwall trade routes there are simply so many slow parties that passing happens multiple times per day.

So yes, it is situational, but ultimately being there first does not give anyone exclusive rights to a piece of public land for a day/however long it takes to climb a route.

My impression is that with Rose and Story there was a verbal and physical assault, bullying, and gender dynamics at play.  Ultimately hindsight being 20/20 they likely should have passed decisively right at the start, but they were trying to respect another party who clearly wasn't reciprocating that respect.  

Regardless, there is no place for verbal abuse, name-calling, physical assault, et cetera in climbing, especially on popular alpine routes in a place where speed does often equate to safety.

Great information, thanks. Experience is really important to provide both context for their incident and for alpine climbing in general. Especially for noobs like me who learned to climb in bowling alleys like Eldo.

To address comments about being focused on climbing etiquette by other posters. Of course violence or threats or just being a rude jackass is not welcome to most of the climbing community.  Since I wasn't there and we have only have heard one person's view, I personally feel there isnt complete information for me to have an opinion on this particular incident. Therefore, I am trying to learn a general lesson from wiser folks. Others might feel differently and trust one view enough to generate outrage but wouldn't it be interesting to hear the other side too? Just sayin it would be fair, no?

HughCwrote:

Great information, thanks. Experience is really important to provide both context for their incident and for alpine climbing in general. Especially for noobs like me who learned to climb in bowling alleys like Eldo.

To address comments about being focused on climbing etiquette by other posters. Of course violence or threats or just being a rude jackass is not welcome to most of the climbing community.  Since I wasn't there and we have only have heard one person's view, I personally feel there isnt complete information for me to have an opinion on this particular incident. Therefore, I am trying to learn a general lesson from wiser folks. Others might feel differently and trust one view enough to generate outrage but wouldn't it be interesting to hear the other side too? Just sayin it would be fair, no?

I imagine the prior poster is an excellent source of general information for alpine climbing, especially RMNP.  But I think you may be making a mistake if you're interpreting that advice as being that following other parties in RMNP is "OK," as contrasted with a "bowling alley" like Eldo.  While different routes have different levels of looseness in both Eldo and RMNP of course, I'd say on average rockfall risk on popular routes in RMNP is much higher than on popular routes Eldo.  

Climbing the North Chimney (below the Diamond) is maybe the most dangerous thing I've done in decades of at least fairly active climbing.  I'm not saying don' t follow other parties--earlier I posted that "one party per day" is probably not a realistic way for most people to climb popular alpine routes in RMNP, and it is certainly not the way I've done it (although there is a lot to be said for trying to be first to maximize your own safety.)    

pfwein Weinbergwrote:

I imagine the prior poster is an excellent source of general information for alpine climbing, especially RMNP.  But I think you may be making a mistake if you're interpreting that advice as being that following other parties in RMNP is "OK," as contrasted with a "bowling alley" like Eldo.  While different routes have different levels of looseness in both Eldo and RMNP of course, I'd say on average rockfall risk on popular routes in RMNP is much higher than on popular routes Eldo.  

Climbing the North Chimney (below the Diamond) is maybe the most dangerous thing I've done in decades of at least fairly active climbing.  I'm not saying don' t follow other parties--earlier I posted that "one party per day" is probably not a realistic way for most people to climb popular alpine routes in RMNP, and it is certainly not the way I've done it (although there is a lot to be said for trying to be first to maximize your own safety.)    

Interesting.  Thanks for that info!

M Rwrote:

Thou Shall Not Pass!

The irony is, Patrick probably doesn't even know this thread exists. 

Free Spiritwrote:

The irony is, Patrick probably doesn't even know this thread exists. 

It's a bummer, too, because it would really add to the fun if he could chime in! 

don't you mean IF HE COULD CHIME IN!!!!!!!!