Flying Buttress (aka Guide to Surviving an Aggressive Manchild in the Alpine)

Bogdan P wrote:

I would say the same exact things. You got tangled up with some fools. Well done. Next time don't do that.

I'm not sure where you're reading sexism in the original post. Patrick allegedly physical shoved one of the women. That is not consistent with any kind of gender norms or stereotypes I'm familiar with. It is definitely some kind of social pathology, but sexism is not what I would call it.

Love the comment, "Well done.  Next time don't do that."  Clearly you're clinging onto the idea that these two gals somehow messed up.  Why do you feel the need to believe that so strongly?   

The two climbers did everything right--they had a nice conversation, re-evaluated when it seemed that the others were slow, started to pass, everything seemed fine, nobody complained...and then Patrick started acting crazy.  They couldn't have predicted that--that is, as I've said, they did nothing wrong.  Maybe they could have hauled ass to get out of there and above even faster, but it sounds like the craziness sort of crept up slowly and increased..at first they thought they could share the route...then things got a little weird...then things got really messed up.  

In my experience, things like that often happen like that--gradually.  It's easy to look back and say, "You should've done this or that," but I maintain they seemed to do everything right and it all went sideways anyhow.  

Only take away I'd have is get up even earlier, hike faster, or bivy the night before to make sure you can start alone and relaxed.

Bruno Schullwrote:

Love the comment, "Well done.  Next time don't do that."  Clearly you're clinging onto the idea that these two gals somehow messed up.  Why do you feel the need to believe that so strongly?   

The two climbers did everything right--they had a nice conversation, re-evaluated when it seemed that the others were slow, started to pass, everything seemed fine, nobody complained...and then Patrick started acting crazy.  They couldn't have predicted that--that is, as I've said, they did nothing wrong.  Maybe they could have hauled ass to get out of there and above even faster, but it sounds like the craziness sort of crept up slowly and increased..at first they thought they could share the route...then things got a little weird...then things got really messed up.  

In my experience, things like that often happen like that--gradually.  It's easy to look back and say, "You should've done this or that," but I maintain they seemed to do everything right and it all went sideways anyhow.  

Only take away I'd have is get up even earlier, hike faster, or bivy the night before to make sure you can start alone and relaxed.

Sorry, I deleted the comment while you were responding. I'm hoping to pull out of this conversation since I think everything that needs to be said has been said, but since you've directed that question at me specifically I'll make one more clarifying comment.

TL;DR: OP's original post reads like a near miss accident report to me. Partially because it seemed potentially dangerous, but mostly because it's a situation I'd like to avoid like the plague. With an accident report you begin from the perspective that a mistake was made BECAUSE the outcome was unfavorable, and that's the only constructive way to look at things. If you look at it that way you might have an easier time understanding my perspective. All that matters is the outcome and what you can learn to have a more favorable outcome in the future. 

I believe they messed up because they did not successfully pass the party and instead got stuck next to them. There is a scoreboard, and they did not score. It's a very simple and ends-justify-the-means kind of argument that you seem to be looking at from a means-justify-the-ends perspective, but that perspective only leaves you bewildered. It leaves you bewildered both in terms of what they could have done differently, in terms of Patricks behavior and in terms of what some of us are saying. It's not useful here. You need to flip your perspective both to understand what I'm saying and to learn something from their experience: If they had made the same choices but succeeding in passing, it would have been fine. They didn't. TheBirdman Friedman's post is a great counter example. Very similar circumstances, very different outcome. The main difference is TheBirdman had a viable strategy for passing under the circumstances. You need to pick your battles, and know when you can win them. If you can't you need to avoid the battle in the first place.

Stuff does often happen gradually, but one would hope that you would learn from it, and come out of these situations asking yourself 'how can I avoid that in the future', not place all the blame on a different party, something you will never have any control over, and not grow at all. In the meantime having been in that situation in the first place strikes me as embarrassing. What if what were happening gradually were storm clouds building overhead? Or changing snow stability throughout the day? I bet you wouldn't let yourself off the hook for mismanaging that. I've had some very close calls in the mountains under those sorts of circumstances and in both cases there were things I could have done differently, despite the complexity of the situation. I came away realizing I had some growing to do. Same deal here. Here specifically it reflects a kind of immaturity as a climber, naivete about people, or something like that. What exactly is a little vague, because there are different strategies you could use to head these situations off, but OP did not successfully implement any of them. We're all guilty of similar stuff at some point, because everyone starts off like that, and it's only through these kinds of experiences that most of us learn more pragmatic approaches (I suppose you could alternatively just be very wise, but I personally mainly learn from mistakes). But when it turns into a shit show it's not something you should make a public scene over, and certainly not in terms of 'look at this asshole' because OP got dragged into the mud too. The story has multiple instances that reflect a lapse of emotional control ("My blood boiled.", "I just wanted to get out of there", etc.) and schadenfreude (seemingly taking joy in Patrick and Stephany struggling with the descent). It's not as bad as Patrick's behavior by any means, but it's still ugly.

OP's original post (the act of making the post, not the content of the post) effectively amounts to helplessly flailing in the face of circumstances that are perceived to have been out of their control. It's a cry for attention with no indication that anything was learned or even that there's any intention to learn something. The only intention is an intention to vent and further concede the loss of control.

For my part there's a point in this story where I was asking myself, "why don't they just bail and spare themselves the indignity of this situation". It seems the thought crossed their minds too, and in the end they did sort of bail by taking the early descent option. I think these choices deserve more attention. My attitude in this situation wouldn't have been much different than walking out of a bar in the face of threats from a belligerent drunk, or looking for ways to bail in the face of developing snow instabilities, or the realization that I misjudged the weather.

@ Bogdon--you and I have very different perspectives on life, and interpretations of this situation, but I admire the clarity and certainty of your views, and your skill in expressing them.  Very rare these days, especially on the internet!  I'll file this away in the "Agree to disagree" category.  

@ Rose--I think your post was valuable.  I didn't read it as a some kind of helpless cry for attention at all--just a story, like so many others on MP, or shared between climbers everywhere.  It's always interesting and instructive to read about the ways that climbs go sideways, and ponder the solutions. All the best.

This thread is now a bigger sh*t show than the premise! 

Getting on the route early does not grant you exclusive rights not to be passed if you are moving slow. 

Tim Stichwrote:

Getting on the route early does not grant you exclusive rights not to be passed if you are moving slow. 

I have climbed only a handful of alpine routes so excuse my possible ignorance, but I thought that was exactly the case.  First come first serve, no?  In my mind no one has the right to pass. That is a courtesy given, not a right that is demanded.  Scenarios such as hanging belays, death choss, etc might be a potential factor in a decision to want a party above you.  So what is the etiquette, folks?  

I heard of this incident in RMNP where a team of two passed a slower party (who denied them permission to pass) and subsequently (and accidentally) dropped a half liter nalgene that hit someone in the party below on the shoulder. No broken bones but the guy couldn’t lift his arm for a couple months. The case was settled out of court and the dude basically got a new sprinter van out of it. JK. 

There was no reason to call out other climbers by name on MP just so she could spray about how she's an "alpine" climber now. The story could have been told without personally shaming anyone. Also, just wait until SHE has a 4-month-old baby at home, she gets ONE day to go climbing while her friend watches the baby, and some youngster with a head of steam starts following their ass up the route they are already on. Karma is a bitch, and the climbing community is small.

There are two sides to this story. I'm not close personal friends with Stephanie, but I see her FB posts, and she posted about a beautiful day in the mountains with her husband, thankful for the opportunity to get out. Now someone wants to come on here and start a debate about "passing in the alpine." That's the game!!! You could have chosen a different route.  But at least if you need to come on MP to tell everyone you alpine climb - tell it without trying to diss on people personally. 

As I mentioned, the climbing community is very small at the end of the day. I don't ever want to make enemies. You might be asking Patrick for a job someday. 

HughCwrote:

I have climbed only a handful of alpine routes so excuse my possible ignorance, but I thought that was exactly the case.  First come first serve, no?  In my mind no one has the right to pass. That is a courtesy given, not a right that is demanded.  Scenarios such as hanging belays, death choss, etc might be a potential factor in a decision to want a party above you.  So what is the etiquette, folks?  

Wake up early

Pass when safe

Don’t be a dick while passing

Don’t be a dick while being passed

I have climbed only a handful of alpine routes so excuse my possible ignorance, but I thought that was exactly the case.  First come first serve, no?  In my mind no one has the right to pass. That is a courtesy given, not a right that is demanded.

When the lightning starts striking close, or the snow starts falling in earnest, the golf course etiquette goes out the window. There is no right to pass, you are correct. There is no right to prevent a pass either. There are no climbing rights at all. 

The best cure for this is to not get in the situation to begin with, as so many have said.

HughCwrote:

 First come first serve, no?  In my mind no one has the right to pass. ....  So what is the etiquette, folks?  

No.

Passing is normal and accepted.  If you are moving slower than other parties, expect to be passed and allow that to happen with grace.  When a faster party passes me, I facilitate by stepping out of the way and allowing them to move through without delay.

If you are moving faster, pass efficiently and smoothly.  I generally introduce myself and explain what I am doing when I pass other parties.  

Philip Magistrowrote:

No.

Passing is normal and accepted.  If you are moving slower than other parties, expect to be passed and allow that to happen with grace.  When a faster party passes me, I facilitate by stepping out of the way and allowing them to move through without delay.

If you are moving faster, pass efficiently and smoothly.  I generally introduce myself and explain what I am doing when I pass other parties.  

...but they weren't moving substantially faster? 

Philip Magistrowrote:

No.

Passing is normal and accepted.  If you are moving slower than other parties, expect to be passed and allow that to happen with grace.  When a faster party passes me, I facilitate by stepping out of the way and allowing them to move through without delay.

If you are moving faster, pass efficiently and smoothly.  I generally introduce myself and explain what I am doing when I pass other parties.  

Nothing is normal.   People do not have to allow people to pass.

Climbing up under another party is fucking stupid.  Lots of people doing it simple means lots of self absorbed shitheads are doing it.  If the shoe fits, wear it.

Tim Stichwrote:

Getting on the route early does not grant you exclusive rights not to be passed if you are moving slow. 

It SHOULD mean that but people have become obsessed with their own endeavours and have thrown away proper way to interact in the mountains.

No one has to allow any passing. It's fucking wrong, no matter how many people are doing it and saying it is required due to crowding is just some weak shit being used to prop up a selfish perspective.

Philip Magistrowrote:

No.

Passing is normal and accepted.  If you are moving slower than other parties, expect to be passed and allow that to happen with grace.  When a faster party passes me, I facilitate by stepping out of the way and allowing them to move through without delay.

If you are moving faster, pass efficiently and smoothly.  I generally introduce myself and explain what I am doing when I pass other parties.  

It sounds like you have more experience in this situation than I.  So it's more about good judgment rather than an  etiquette issue? That makes more sense. I have only had  a few experiences of letting free solists pass who have asked otherwise, I personally have yet to have climbers come up behind (although I am sure wanted to due my bumbling) and want to pass. Thanks 

@Penny, your great certainty that you are right, and that this is black and white, reflects your great disconnect from the climbing world.  Read the responses above on the many graceful ways to pass and be passed.  That's how mature adults act when climbing. 

@HughC--Yes, there is an accepted basic etiquette, but, clearly, some people have extreme, selfish, unrealistic views.  I suggest that you read through all the posts here, think about how you would act in different situations, and come up with your own philosophy.  

@HughC--sorry I posted before I saw your last message.  The many, many times I've been bumbling up rock routes, and had parties appear lower, I've often called down and said, "Hey, if you'd like to pass, no problem!"  That often alleviates some of the stress and tension.  

The big exceptions to this, as I wrote before, is ice climbing, where one should basically never climb below anyone else (although people always do, of course!).  Falling chunks of ice are absolutely a normal part of ice climbing. Climbing up below others is just plain stupid, and climbing past others is truly a dangerous thing to do.  I think this all lead to a dust up in the Canadian Rockies some years back, prompting Will Gadd and others to issue a kind of code of conduct for ice climbing.  That included writing the route you are attempting on the window of your car, to avoid others coming to the base of the same route.  

But, again, on rock, when the conditions and space allow, passing politely is totally acceptable.  

Have fun navigating this crazy, crowded world!!!

Dan COwrote:

I also didn't realize that alpine 5.10 is a moderate route to be avoided.  Flying buttress is not the Spearhead or the Petit.  'Go somewhere else' when its crowded is also not a viable option from there unless you're up for much harder climbing.

The Ships Prow is RIGHT THERE with tons of 5.8-5.10 3 to 4 pitch routes. It's not the classic Flying Buttress, but you can definitely still climb in the mountains that day. I don't head up into the alpine without 2-4 objectives in an area anymore. Plan to have a Plan B!  (I still haven't climbed the Barb yet because I'm not willing to climb below people, and I keep missing it by minutes. So I've climbed Sykes 4 times now because it's better than climbing below someone.)

When I did the Buttress a few years ago we got stuck behind a slow party, so I climbed a harder thin crack line far to the right to go around them and rejoined the route two pitches higher. I ended up pulling on nuts to get through, but an hour and a half later, we were above them on the ledge system. To this day, that has been one of my most fun and memorable days in the park. I never would have gotten on that tiny pink seam if there weren't noobs on our route. 

HughCwrote:

 First come first serve, no? 

It's definitely not "first come first serve".
Passing is not a right per se but there is no reason not to accept it if the party below is much faster - that's common sense/courtesy basically.
As someone else said the only exception is ice climbing