Gyms Removing Auto-belays

clee 03mwrote:

Depends on your level. I can’t do ARC on a bouldering wall as I am not strong enough. I also have bad joints and can’t fall off bouldering problems which means I won’t be able to push my limits at the gym. I also do aerobic endurance type training on the crack which is currently on an autobelay which I won’t be be able to do. So it really depends. 

You don’t have to ARC to train endurance. You can do 4x4s, on-the-minute bouldering, circuits on the spray wall, really all manner of methods. I came out of the pandemic with the best endurance I ever had, and managed that with nothing more than a hangboard and systems wall in the garage. And, I am also old, feeble and have bad knees, hips and back. 

I do use the bouldering wall for 4x4. Which I use to increase my anaerobic threshold. But that doesn’t help me with aerobic threshold. Like I said. I wish I was strong enough for that…..

clee 03mwrote:

I do use the bouldering wall for 4x4. Which I use to increase my anaerobic threshold. But that doesn’t help me with aerobic threshold. Like I said. I wish I was strong enough for that…..

Just curious, have you raised your concerns with your gym?

Couldn't there be a better waiver for autobelays? 

Start up with signing the gym rules where you are not allowed to even touch auto-belays. Then sign a separate waiver that allows you to touch auto-belays, but if you die it's your own damn fault. 

Sergey Shelukhinwrote:

Couldn't there be a better waiver for autobelays? 

Start up with signing the gym rules where you are not allowed to even touch auto-belays. Then sign a separate waiver that allows you to touch auto-belays, but if you die it's your own damn fault. 

The current waiver covers it but nobody wants a dead person on their watch.

^^^ this.

I vote to make arm floaters mandatory in all public pools. Sure, it might cost us a few futur Micheal Phelps, but that's the price one has to pay to be safe.

I'm going to retreat in my glass bubble for now.

Tradibanwrote:

The current waiver covers it but nobody wants a dead person on their watch.

It is really heart breaking to have someone get injured in the gym due to something quite preventable. You are absolutely right that waivers go a long way in protecting gym against frivolous outcomes, unfortunately frivolous lawsuits still need to be responded to, which incurs quite a bit of monetary burden to gyms. GymClimber article spawned this mp thread - Gymclimber mag - Auto Belay related lawsuit

The frivolous lawsuit doesn't really hurt the gym in a monetary way since the liability insurance should also include a duty to defend by the insurer. Waivers only go so far, you can't have someone sign a waiver that actually releases the gym from all liability. If an anchor were to just fail the gym would probably be responsible even if someone had said they release all liability from the gym. Legal expenses for insurance are weird but I wouldn't be surprised if underwriters ask gyms to pull auto belays just to avoid court costs. 

Wouldn't an option (with only marginally more annoyance to users) be to put two lockers on the ab and inform climbers to clip into both?  The two jangling there would be kind of hard to ignore and the chance of false-clipping two would be way lower than one

Curious about accidents related to lowering via auto-belays?  My friend was crushed by a much bigger climber who landed on her without any warning as she was prepping her rope far from the wall (route was overhanging).   The inability to control the descent seems like another problem with these devices.   I can't believe gyms are removing tope-ropes in favor of these devices.

Stan Pitcherwrote:

Curious about accidents related to lowering via auto-belays?  My friend was crushed by a much bigger climber who landed on her without any warning as she was prepping her rope far from the wall (route was overhanging).   The inability to control the descent seems like another problem with these devices.   I can't believe gyms are removing tope-ropes in favor of these devices.

Sorry to hear about that, but that just sounds like a lack of situational awareness by your friend. Those AB's also lower quite slow - the climber should have yapped louder but I've also seen people on ropes with belayers lower onto someone not paying attention off a lead cave. 

M Mwrote:

I always appreciated getting to know people by climbing with/next to them. The chain of gyms I went to a few years back never had auto belays, it forced me to be social enough to find partners which was good because there were some great lead walls at that gym. 

Like the fellow said upthread,  it could be made safer but why? Go boulder 

On a statistical basis, I wonder which is more accident prone - using an autobelay or climbing with a random stranger.

On a short term basis, I prefer the autobelay. And, unlike bouldering, autobelays have a very low probability of groundfall.

Bill Czajkowskiwrote:

On a statistical basis, I wonder which is more accident prone - using an autobelay or climbing with a random stranger.

On a short term basis, I prefer the autobelay. And, unlike bouldering, autobelays have a very low probability of groundfall.

Random people is one thing, climbing with someone who has passed your own personal test is another. 

It probably really boils down to climbing either being a social sport/hobby or an individual one. I usually would rather read a book than go climb solo, thats me

Regarding situational awareness, seems maybe the auto-belay landing zones should be at least marked somewhat.  My gym doesn't have them but if I walked into the climbing area and didn't see anyone belaying nearby I would not be worrying about someone dropping on me.  Also I've never used one - does weight affect the lower rate or do heavier climbers come done faster?  Also I am guessing some folks might try to climb routes off to side of where autobelay is - how does a swinging fall affect the lower?

Making a habit of noting proximate climbers in the gym (and outside) is always a good policy, autobelay or not. And yes speed-lowering bros are far worse.

Stan Pitcherwrote:

Regarding situational awareness, seems maybe the auto-belay landing zones should be at least marked somewhat.  My gym doesn't have them but if I walked into the climbing area and didn't see anyone belaying nearby I would not be worrying about someone dropping on me.  Also I've never used one - does weight affect the lower rate or do heavier climbers come done faster?  Also I am guessing some folks might try to climb routes off to side of where autobelay is - how does a swinging fall affect the lower?

<My gym doesn't have them but if I walked into the climbing area and didn't see anyone belaying nearby I would not be worrying about someone dropping on me.  >

My gyms have a ground cover (triangular attachment) that flags the area just below the autobelay.  Also, for one overhanging set of routes, there is a wider swath (square area) marked where climbers often land.

<Also I've never used one - does weight affect the lower rate or do heavier climbers come done faster?  >

Physics says yes, but the difference is not entirely obvious.

<Also I am guessing some folks might try to climb routes off to side of where autobelay is - how does a swinging fall affect the lower?>

The side swing definitely affects the arc and the eventual landing spot.  Many gyms (including mine) mark the climbs that aren't supposed to be used on the auto-belay, but generally that includes every climb that's on one of the adjacent anchors.

My gym's autobelays lower fairly fast, at least, fast enough it always feels uncomfortable to me. I'd not want a partner lowering me at the same speed.

The autobelays get moved around, so the only way to know the potential landing zone of a climber....is to actually pay some slight bit of attention to climbers. That's on the person who was messing with their rope and not looking around. But, a climber should also be looking under them before and during a lower, so that's their part in it. 

Best, Helen

Meanwhile, Italians have lead-climbing autobelays.

https://www.urbanwall.it/2021/09/07/prograde-atterra-in-urbanwall/

Stan Pitcherwrote:

Regarding situational awareness, seems maybe the auto-belay landing zones should be at least marked somewhat.  My gym doesn't have them but if I walked into the climbing area and didn't see anyone belaying nearby I would not be worrying about someone dropping on me.  Also I've never used one - does weight affect the lower rate or do heavier climbers come done faster?  Also I am guessing some folks might try to climb routes off to side of where autobelay is - how does a swinging fall affect the lower?

I can kind of answer the lowering question for at least tru blues - because they use a magnet, everyone does lower at the same speed regardless of weight. IDK if the perfect descent is the same, there's is mechanical, not magnetic. A swing would not affect the speed of the lower, it would just be the same sideways whip as on a top rope.

80 trippwrote:

Meanwhile, Italians have lead-climbing autobelays.

https://www.urbanwall.it/2021/09/07/prograde-atterra-in-urbanwall/

How did you find out about this? This is amazing news.