Permanent tree rap stations

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

 Slings and rings suck.  if it's high traffic the tree will die not from strangulation but from erosion around the root system.  If it's not high traffic  it will get funky.  A proper bolted anchor is much smaller impact and less obtrusive. Sometimes there is no realistic option for a bolted anchor and the tree anchor is the best option.   In that case static rope is best but regular climbing rope is decent. 

The dead trees i notice the most are the ones(ancient pitch pines) growing right out of cracks with absolutely no erosion because its all in the crack. I agree on the bolt thing, I'd way rather see a shiny bolt than a dead old tree that used to provide habitat.

  Two bolts and some chain on the shady side of the tree would be the best option for the tree and safety.  Perfectly fine to remove and replace the worst tat.

Drederekwrote:

  Two bolts and some chain on the shady side of the tree would be the best option for the tree and safety.  Perfectly fine to remove and replace the worst tat.

+1 for taking the tree's point of view. It's amazing that so many climbing communities are willing to kill a 200 year old living thing to avoid drilling two small holes in the cold dead stone.

Gunkiemikewrote:

+1 for taking the tree's point of view. It's amazing that so many climbing communities are willing to kill a 200 year old living thing to avoid drilling two small holes in the cold dead stone.

*Coughs* Royal Arches *Coughs again* The Caverns *Coughs again*

You get the idea... of course, this has been debated for a long time about saving trees on MP.  Yet some (older) people and their blind followers want to keep the routes "as they were".  At this point, I'm pretty sure they aren't treehuggers but hug the trees with their anchors.  Yes, I realize there are gear options on these routes but seriously, how many people really build gear anchors when there is a tree?

I pretty much always build a gear anchor instead of using a tree. I figure it's trying hard enough to live there without me bothering it. I also don't like getting sap, etc all over everything. Some folks i know get really upset about NOT using trees when they are available, which seems kind of weird.

Gunkiemikewrote:

+1 for taking the tree's point of view. It's amazing that so many climbing communities are willing to kill a 200 year old living thing to avoid drilling two small holes in the cold dead stone.

200 years on the young side. Trees on cliffs that are large enough to be trusted for a rap I'd estimate are twice that. The oldest cliff tree in N.A. being over 1,300 years old

https://drreese.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/ancient-forests-cling-to-the-niagara-escarpment/ drreese.wordpress.com/2014/…

But if the care for not killing cliff trees was really about age we wouldn't clean and establish half the routes and boulders that we do. Lichens are often many hundreds of years old sometimes thousands on virgin cliffs. It's really about soil stability, shade, and charismatic megaflora

B DeMerswrote:

. It's really about soil stability, shade, and charismatic megaflora

The next ugly back country route I find is going to be called Charismatic Megaflora.

Gunkiemikewrote:

The next ugly back country route I find is going to be called Charismatic Megaflora.

Lol love it! Please post it to mp so I can find it!

See this - mountainproject.com/forum/t…

An anchor really should go in. This place gets enough traffic at this point. Almost all the other old rap trees at this place in question have been begrudgingly replaced with bolted anchors. Hell, the first pitch of this climb has a bolted anchor. I don't think anybody would Shawn Snyder it if one went in. 

that guy named sebwrote:

don't use slings for rap stations, use a rope, slings lose pretty much all of their strength from uv degradation whereas a rope maintains most of it even if the mantle is destroyed by UV.

Came here to say this ^^^^

Tree raps make sense on many ice climbs in southern Ontario. Why use slings when retired dynamic rope is readily available, free, and way better?

Robert P wrote:

I don't know about this - there are probably regional differences - but here in the SE one of the few areas with a hard no bolting policy clearly has far less erosion at the base of the cliffline. You can actually lose the trail and pick it up later after a light slog through brush and fallen trees. And yes, there is plenty of tat on trees up top, but none appear to be unhealthy or damaged in any way. I think this is due in large part to significantly reduced human traffic.

Admittedly,  the fact that there are bolted areas close by helps disperse the crowds and I'm not trying to start the bolt/ no bolt argument, I believe each has its merits. It's just that, like most things in life, it's not that simple.

Moores, Linville, or cooks?  (I started climbing out there :-/ )  

I did enjoy the backwoods feel.

Gumby Kingwrote:

Moores, Linville, or cooks?  (I started climbing out there :-/ )  

I did enjoy the backwoods feel.

Hell will freeze over thrice before bolted anchors are added to Moores

Chris TeBeauwrote:

I've noticed that the majority of tree rap stations I've encountered consist of webbing wrapped around the tree a few times, threaded through a rap ring, and tied together with a fisherman's. Why do most people use this method vs. Building a master point. I get that multiple tree wraps disperses the weight better, but wouldn't the added redundancy of a masterpoint make for a safer anchor? Especially when these slings are worn to hell and look like they're about to tear. 

There are a few anchors in my area that desperately could use a touch up. Considering the best options. 

You're right that multiple wraps with a masterpoint is best. I always do this if I have enough rope/webbing. Don't know why we see so many of the other setup... but it's been that way for a long time. 

If you're upgrading, try to use static rope. It'll last exponentially longer, especially in WNC where critters really enjoy chewing through softer materials (this seems to be particularly bad in Linville Gorge).

Igor Chainedwrote:

Can someone explain how a master point off of a single tree and sling would create redundancy?

Really trying to 'wrap' my head around this.

Thanks.

He's referring to redundancy in the strands. Without a "masterpoint" if one strand goes (perhaps because it was chewed through by some gnarly NC varmit) then the whole shebang is toast. A "masterpoint" isolates each strand. 

nbrownwrote:

He's referring to redundancy in the strands. Without a "masterpoint" if one strand goes (perhaps because it was chewed through by some gnarly NC varmit) then the whole shebang is toast. A "masterpoint" isolates each strand. 

But the master point cuts total strength in half on some materials. This may matter to the SAR situations when raising a full litter with a couple of corn fed barrow boys.

Ackley The Improvedwrote:

But the master point cuts total strength in half on some materials. This may matter to the SAR situations when raising a full litter with a couple of corn fed barrow boys.

Yes. And obviously, having your webbing going from 20kN to only 10kN for a rappel is a huge issue!

Sometimes I use a tree as a backup and keep the force on some not quite bomber looking pieces to save the tree some wear 

Ackley The Improvedwrote:

But the master point cuts total strength in half on some materials. This may matter to the SAR situations when raising a full litter with a couple of corn fed barrow boys.

Total strength is not what's important here. Redundancy is, for reasons I already stated.

I wish we would just add bolts on well used tree rap stations. Seems to be silly to keep using the tree but I digress. 

If the tat looks really mank I'll leave a sling/multiple as needed. If it's my own sling I don't need redundancy, if it's old slings it makes me feel better.

Single ring if it looks good is fine, I mean you are hanging body weight on it, you have a lot of margin.