Lead Climbing is Often Safer than Top Rope

Just watched two separate groups of people almost incorrectly set up and anchor...

Chad Millerwrote:

Says the insincere troll. 

Lol! You sure know how to impress a gal   

Greg: hi Trevor puppy dog. I’m new to the area. Can you suggest some good routes.

Trevor puppy dog: sure.  Crimp Fest, I Like Big Butts, and Biden’s Insane Budget are my favorites.

Greg: thanks Trevor puppy dog. But, it looks like those climbs are top rope only. I’m just a beginner climber.

Trevor puppy dog:  Oh, my bad. I didn’t know you where inexperienced, otherwise I would have recommended lead only routes like Pandemic Is Over, Border Is Open, and Inflation is Neither. All lead climbs. Way safer for beginners.

“In a trad situation it takes about the same amount of knowledge to top rope as it does lead.”  ~ My Dude

Uhhhhhhhh... hmmmmm... well now...

A lead fall is quite a bit different than a fall on TR. 

Placing gear on lead is quite a bit different than placing gear at the top of a route to set up a TR or even doing a mock lead (practice leading on a second rope with a TR to take the mental factor down many notches).

While both lead climbing and setting up a TR are inherently dangerous...I must step in and say that there is absolutely no way that top rope climbing is any more dangerous than lead climbing is in any way measurably true.

Leading is much, much, much more mental, and therefore potentially quite a bit more dangerous.

Example: What is a fall at the crux like on TR versus on a PG13 route on lead?

If you are a new leader with half a brain you already know this.

This is a decent site for setting up a TR if you are not ready to lead and want to start safely climbing on a toprope.

https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/top-rope/

~ “Trad Climbing Basics”

Should we be telling everyone to just go set up a TR? Depends on what they know and are willing to know before they venture out and try for themselves. Most climbers are fairly technical, thoughtful humans that will realize when they’re too close to an edge and need to anchor themselves off to something before setting up a proper TR anchor under much less mental pressure.

We’re living in a world where we’ve lost faith in each other sadly, and trust is sometimes threadbare. Albeit, the average literacy rate may be dropping in America as a whole, but the key to this is good communication.

“Take off is optional, landing is mandatory!”

~ Anonymous

Greg Dwrote:

Greg: hi Trevor puppy dog. I’m new to the area. Can you suggest some good routes.

Trevor puppy dog: sure.  Crimp Fest, I Like Big Butts, and Biden’s Insane Budget are my favorites.

Greg: thanks Trevor puppy dog. But, it looks like those climbs are top rope only. I’m just a beginner climber.

Trevor puppy dog:  Oh, my bad. I didn’t know you where inexperienced, otherwise I would have recommended lead only routes like Pandemic Is Over, Border Is Open, and Inflation is Neither. All lead climbs. Way safer for beginners.

It's more like:

New climber: I am new to climbing and would like to get out

Experience climber: Go top rope something

New climber: looks on mountain project and there are not many top rope climbs goes to the few listed

New climber then goes out with little to no experience in a place with little reception looking for the top rope. The top rope actually requires a 20 foot 5.8 free solo. That is kinda how it often goes in washington.

Pierre de St Croixwrote:

“In a trad situation it takes about the same amount of knowledge to top rope as it does lead.”  ~ My Dude

Uhhhhhhhh... hmmmmm... well now...

A lead fall is quite a bit different than a fall on TR. 

Placing gear on lead is quite a bit different than placing gear at the top of a route to set up a TR or even doing a mock lead (practice leading on a second rope with a TR to take the mental factor down many notches).

While both lead climbing and setting up a TR are inherently dangerous...I must step in and say that there is absolutely no way that top rope climbing is any more dangerous than lead climbing is in any way measurably true.

Leading is much, much, much more mental, and therefore potentially quite a bit more dangerous.

Example: What is a fall at the crux like on TR versus on a PG13 route on lead?

If you are a new leader with half a brain you already know this.

This is a decent site for setting up a TR if you are not ready to lead and want to start safely climbing on a toprope.

https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/top-rope/

~ “Trad Climbing Basics”

Should we be telling everyone to just go set up a TR? Depends on what they know and are willing to know before they venture out and try for themselves. Most climbers are fairly technical, thoughtful humans that will realize when they’re too close to an edge and need to anchor themselves off to something before setting up a proper TR anchor under much less mental pressure.

We’re living in a world where we’ve lost faith in each other sadly, and trust is sometimes threadbare. Albeit, the average literacy rate may be dropping in America as a whole, but the key to this is good communication.

“Take off is optional, landing is mandatory!”

~ Anonymous

If you are doing a climb that requires a gear anchor I simply do not know why you wouldn't know how to lead on gear. Like would you trust someones gear anchor that has never led a trad pitch? In Pawtuckaway state park many climbs are listed as top ropes but knowing how to build an anchor is in my opinion more complicated than knowing how to clip bolts. At least in practice we see way more people starting with sport climbing. So if you lived in New Hampshire and went with the advice that you should top rope first that is bad advice if you do not know anyone experienced. You would end up building some janky tree anchor when better advice would have been to learn how to lead a sport climbing doing 5.5. I quite literally followed the first pitch of this climb my clown posse all agreed that it was a more dangerous first pitch follow than lead.

If you top rope any climb at darth vader wall in Rumney it is absolutely more dangerous than leading. With all the slack in the system going through a horizontal roof falling results in swinging and soft decking. I watched it happen many many times. I am not saying it is always more dangerous. There are just situations where following a climb is more dangerous than leading it. So blindly telling people to go top rope stuff is a bad idea. It is especially bad if the person lacks any kinda of person with knowledge about climbing outside. I think most new england people would agree that learning to lead a 5.5 in Rumney makes more sense than learning how to build a gear/tree anchor in pawtuckaway and top roping off that.

Yet it is a pervasive recommendation on mountain project to top rope in a place with poor top rope access.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

It's more like:

New climber: I am new to climbing and would like to get out

Experience climber: Go top rope something

New climber: looks on mountain project and there are not many top rope climbs goes to the few listed

New climber then goes out with little to no experience in a place with little reception looking for the top rope. The top rope actually requires a 20 foot 5.8 free solo. That is kinda how it often goes in washington. 

How does this at all demonstrate that leading is often safer than toproping? To even begin to make an assertion on this, shouldn't you be throwing out anecdotes? With what you are saying, your point could just as well be "researching a climb is often safer than not researching a climb". It's been said enough in this thread already, but your progression of thought is flawed. You have to look at accidents and severity. You have to look at regularity of said accidents. Do you have any data like this to help support your claim? I imagine you would. 

T Legowrote:

How does this at all demonstrate that leading is often safer than toproping? To even begin to make an assertion on this, shouldn't you be throwing out anecdotes? With what you are saying, your point could just as well be "researching a climb is often safer than not researching a climb". It's been said enough in this thread already, but your progression of thought is flawed. You have to look at accidents and severity. You have to look at regularity of said accidents. Do you have any data like this to help support your claim? I imagine you would. 

uh I was responding to someone directly based on their quote. When someone writes an ancedote that doesn't represent the situation at hand then I corrected it? I am not saying it is always more dangerous, just sometimes on occasion top roping can be more dangerous. I absolutely agree with this, "researching a climb is often safer than not researching a climb". Consider this climbing area , would recommending that people who have never climbed outside should go setup top ropes really be a good recommendation? Or index? 

Back in the thread I listed three areas that have had top rope mishaps.

Telling someone who has never climbed outside and has no friends that climb outside to go setup a top rope is bad advice. Giving them route specific advice is far far better, yet time and time again you see the recommendation to "just go setup a top rope."

Chad Miller wrote:

And you where in both of them?  

Where? Lets chat because you seem like you wanna internet bully me and I would rather converse over a phone call. I Dm'd you my number.

I have now said this multiple times, but I did not say top roping is always more dangerous than lead climbing. I generally think lead climbing is more dangerous (95% of the time). It is strange that all of you think that 100% of the time lead climbing is more dangerous. 

Edit for mike:

mike h wrote:

And sometimes, on occasion, eating Cheerios can be more dangerous than base jumping. 

It seems like what you really meant to say in this thread is "well protected lead climbs are often safer than setting up a dangerous top rope". But you seem reluctant to admit that your thread title and first post were poorly worded/written, so everyone is picking apart arguments that you claim you never made. 

I quite literally admitted I did not use the best wording up thread.

You act like there's a huge pattern of beginners being blindly told to go top rope with no other info. Have examples? In posts I see, people are told to TR with suggestions of good places to do so. Much more commonly, a more experienced person will lead and hang a rope, and when it comes time for the beginner to climb, the suggestion will be for them to TR. Because... it's almost always safer than leading.

The climbing gym sells an introduction to top roping... for an area that actually does not have many easily accessible top rope climbs... 

Trevor Taylorwrote:

Just watched two separate groups of people almost incorrectly set up and anchor...

And you where in both of them?  

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

...I am not saying it is always more dangerous, just sometimes on occasion top roping can be more dangerous. 

And sometimes, on occasion, eating Cheerios can be more dangerous than base jumping. 

It seems like what you really meant to say in this thread is "well protected lead climbs are often safer than setting up a dangerous top rope". But you seem reluctant to admit that your thread title and first post were poorly worded/written, so everyone is picking apart arguments that you claim you never made. 

You act like there's a huge pattern of beginners being blindly told to go top rope with no other info. Have examples? In posts I see, people are told to TR with suggestions of good places to do so. Much more commonly, a more experienced person will lead and hang a rope, and when it comes time for the beginner to climb, the suggestion will be for them to TR. Because... it's almost always safer than leading. 

Pierre de St Croixwrote:

... “Take off is optional, landing is mandatory!”

~ Anonymous

I went to an Viesturs slide show once where he closed his remarks by saying "Getting to the summit is optional. Getting back down is not." This was in reference to one of the themes of his presentation, the number of times he went to a big mountain, felt it wasn't right (weather, conditions, whatever), and walked away to come back another time. Using this strategy, he became the first American to climb all of the 8,000 meter peaks alone without oxygen.

I'm still having trouble wrapping my brain around the idea that if someone is incompetent to set up a TR, they should lead instead. And if a newbie gets to their intended TR route and for some reason setting it up safely is a problem, it's time they learn a key survival skill in climbing. If it ain't right walk away. Or maybe Ed Viesturs doesn't know what he's talking about?

I think it's important to keep in mind that Trevor gave Pawtuckaway, Devil's Lake, and Rumney as examples. I've never been to Devil's Lake, but I can speak to Pway and Rumney. There are regular posts on MP stretching back years asking about adding bolted anchors at Pway. Some of the climb have trees that are set back far, and some of the trees/vegetation at the top of cliffs are clearly damaged from repeated anchors. Compare this to Rumney that has good bolting and very easy anchors for every route that I've been on.

It's easy for me to agree that the technical know-how for building anchors is greater for top-rope Pway than lead climb Rumney. I'm not pretending to mean that this then means that generally lead is safer than top-roping. That's a silly argument to me. There are routes that are poor candidates for top roping, but an appropriately set up top-rope route is gonna be very safe for outdoor climbing.

Lmao I missed that he said Devil's Lake.

Yeah, the clusterfuck thread has plenty of examples of bad anchors. You know people often conclude in there? It will probably hold, and it has for every example in there.

That cam you placed two feet below your feet though? Well... I just wouldn't fall. While most accidents are hikers slipping off a ledge, there are many documented lead deaths, including an experienced leader just a few years ago.

Maybe Mr. Puppy Lovr did not realize that there's no sport climbing at Devil's Lake 

Ben Silverwrote:

Lmao I missed that he said Devil's Lake.

Yeah, the clusterfuck thread has plenty of examples of bad anchors. You know people often conclude in there? It will probably hold, and it has for every example in there.

That cam you placed two feet below your feet though? Well... I just wouldn't fall. While most accidents are hikers slipping off a ledge, there are many documented lead deaths, including an experienced leader just a few years ago.

Maybe Mr. Puppy Lovr did not realize that there's no sport climbing at Devil's Lake 

I realize there is no sport climbing at devils lake, that is the point (I don't wanna be a dick but why did you think I thought devils lake was sport climbing?). Isn't it more complicated to use tree/gear anchors than clipping a few bolts?

Think about it this way the typical progression of a climber if you pay for all the gym classes: Learn to top rope-> Learn to top rope outside->Learn to lead inside->Learn to sport climb outside->Learn to trad climb outside. The only difference between top roping outside and top roping inside is that you might learn how to setup an anchor and/or take it down (but am not sure). Well if you can't get to the anchor easily/the anchor itself requires some creativity it probably just makes more sense to know how to lead climb outside. As the other poster said it is far simpler to learn to sport climb in Rumney than top rope in Pway. I also think it is far more straightforward to lead climb in the greater seattle area than setup a top rope. 

Yall are so focused about attacking me you seem to have forgotten how to read and your not even responding to points I am making. I am sorry if my wording has been confusing but I am trying to clarify the best I can but rather than treat another human with compassion you seem real bent on attacking me. I hope you don't spend this much energy trying to make someone elses life worse.

Please explain to me how top roping in Pway is safer 100% of the time than learning how to lead climb in Rumney for a newer climber. If you disagree with this that means you agree with me and the topic of the thread.

rob.calmwrote:

Very sadly, I've known two people who had accidents setting up top ropes. One fell about 30 feet and suffered injuries that have permanently limited her mobility. The other setting up a toprope on 25 foot cliff had a fatal fall. I was visiting with him just a week before that accident. They were both proficient climbers with one having extensive experience from crag to alpine with many first ascents. 

I'm sorry for your friends' accidents but you didn't answer my question: Where are the examples of people who can't climb on TR safely but CAN on lead? Your original post and subject title say "Lead  Climbing is Often Safer than Top Rope." Not, "Sometimes people have accidents setting up top ropes."

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Please explain to me how top roping in Pway is safer 100% of the time than learning how to lead climb in Rumney for a newer climber. If you disagree with this that means you agree with me and the topic of the thread.

You’re the one that stated leading is safer than top roping. That’s how you stated off this thread. Such a statement is not true when you take into account climbing throughout the country  

Your insistence to hold onto this view despite the overwhelming disagreement from respondents shows that you’re not well traveled and either inexperienced, an idiot, or a troll.  Probably all three.  

Oh and for the record setting an extended top rope anchor with gear at DL is not difficult.  If you think so then you shouldn’t be leading trad there or anywhere.  

Chad Millerwrote:

You’re the one that stated leading is safer than top roping. That’s how you stated off this thread. Such a statement is not true when you take into account climbing throughout the country  

Your insistence to hold onto this view despite the overwhelming disagreement from respondents shows that you’re not well traveled and either inexperienced, an idiot, or a troll.  Probably all three.  

Oh and for the record setting an extended top rope anchor with gear at DL is not difficult.  If you think so then you shouldn’t be leading trad there or anywhere.  

Have you considered taking a deep breathe? You didn’t answer my question. I agree that in general top roping is safer than leading but sometimes it is not. Apparently you see the world in black and white. I am curious how you fare when a climbing situation isn’t cookie cutter if you can’t understand how sometimes top roping might not be safe. Also what climbs do you recommend I do at devils lake? 

Also you think trad anchors are simpler than sport anchors? I’m just saying a bolted anchor is simpler than a tree or gear anchor.

If you feel like attacking me for my experience please take a look at Washington climbs I should do so I have an adequate amount of experience. I have ticked most my climbs on puppy lvr. Do I need to lead more, find more partners, climb more?

Senor Arroz wrote:

I'm sorry for your friends' accidents but you didn't answer my question: Where are the examples of people who can't climb on TR safely but CAN on lead? Your original post and subject title say "Lead  Climbing is Often Safer than Top Rope." Not, "Sometimes people have accidents setting up top ropes."

Okay if that’s the title of the thread you agree with me? I gave locations of accidents I’m not gonna waste time searching because at the end of the day i just don’t want people to blindly go up a top rope and then have no idea what risk they might be at. Or next time I’m mid redpoint should I not stop for the girl crying because she doesn’t know how to clean an anchor?

People have this false sense of security top roping.

Chad Millerwrote:

You’re the one that stated leading is safer than top roping. That’s how you stated off this thread. Such a statement is not true when you take into account climbing throughout the country  

Your insistence to hold onto this view despite the overwhelming disagreement from respondents shows that you’re not well traveled and either inexperienced, an idiot, or a troll.  Probably all three.  

Oh and for the record setting an extended top rope anchor with gear at DL is not difficult.  If you think so then you shouldn’t be leading trad there or anywhere.  

You would probably have better luck convincing him if your tone is more respectful.

Trevor, can we talk about your love for puppies now?

Tradibanwrote:

You would probably have better luck convincing him if your tone is more respectful.

I’m not trying to convince him. 

Chad Millerwrote:

I’m not trying to convince him. 

Then what are you trying to achieve?