Introducing Climb United

M Awrote:

The only route I have seen provided so far, not that anyone other than the poster that provided it would defend it, is Rock Retard. That is a pretty hard name to defend.

You misread my post, M Alexander. I categorized the route “rock retard” as an offensive route and I do find it highly offensive. It definitely needed to be changed and I was part of the push to have it changed.

I simply offered that the word “retard” was used for a long time as a disability category in special education and didn’t have the negative connotation it does now. When the route was named, it probably didn’t have the same meaning it does now- hence “it aged poorly” comment. Im in no way defending the name.

My point was, not all FAist had ill intent when they named routes now perceived as offensive. But, things change and we should change route names, like rock retard, to reflect that change/progress. 

Captain Ahabwrote:

You misread my post, M Alexander. I categorized the route “rock retard” as an offensive route and I do find it highly offensive. It definitely needed to be changed and I was part of the push to have it changed.

I simply offered that the word “retard” was used for a long time as a disability category in special education and didn’t have the negative connotation it does now. When the route was named, it probably didn’t have the same meaning it does now- hence “it aged poorly” comment. Im in no way defending the name.

My point was, not all FAist had ill intent when they named routes now perceived as offensive. But, things change and we should change route names, like rock retard, to reflect that change/progress. 

My apologies, I misread your intentions on my first pass. 

caughtinside wrote:

As a counterexample - one only has to look at the routes [redacted] on mountain project that qualify as "offensive" yet use none of the words on that list.  

The first couple that spring to mind: Babes in Thailand on Tonsai, a historical reference, presumably upsetting because it's sexist? The Racist at the New, because the word Racist is upsetting, and Happiness in Slavery at Tensleep, the name of a Nine Inch Nails song, presumably because a reference to slavery is upsetting.  Those are just some examples of the slippery slope of offensive route names, none of which use any words on the Climb United list. 

This is exactly my point. Climb United seems to be a direct response to the original redaction campaign by MP, where there is a formal list, a formal process, and discretion is recommended. None of these examples apply to Climb United. Do not be upset at Climb United for the redaction of any of those routes.

Astrid: Thanks for the info, I had never heard that term before. Climb United has this to say:

"Publishers are encouraged to use discretion and engage with the RNTF, Director of Climb United, and colleagues with questions."

A route named Mick Jagger is very obviously not going to be censored or redacted, there is no reason to worry. Same with most routes that use flip if used as a very common verb. If it is used as a slur, it should definitely be changed. 

Aren't we all rock retards?

Yoda Jedi Knightwrote:

Aren't we all rock retards?

You lost your chill when you got famous 

M Awrote:

This is exactly my point. Climb United seems to be a direct response to the original redaction campaign by MP, where there is a formal list, a formal process, and discretion is recommended. None of these examples apply to Climb United. Do not be upset at Climb United for the redaction of any of those routes.

Did Climb United ever say the current list of prohibited words was final?  No.

“The provided list is non-exhaustive and subject to review and change.”

Did they say it would never contain multi-word phrases? Not that I saw.  It would be trivial to create a very offensive phrase without using a word on the existing list. So those individual words need to be added? But, individually, the words are fine?

So it is not possible to guess how the list of words (and phrases) will evolve - and it will if enacted, perhaps even to encompass virtually all the 6000 routes redacted on MP.

Such a list evolving makes sense - I feel it is necessary. But I am interested in how transparently the process will include community involvement.

“This list shall be made available to the public.  A user form will be available for individuals to submit words that they would like added, along with an explanation of the potential for harm.”

Will the explanations be publicly available? Is there a place for community debate? Can a Publishers decision ever be reversed?

Colonel Mustardwrote:

You’d almost think routes are anything more than glorified nature trails reading this continual self-important drivel, lol!

Call them what you want. Call them nothing at all. It’s a chunk of stone that will be unnamed for the overwhelming majority of its existence.

Think about the children Colonel, we must protect them from the real world at any cost. When we send our kids out into the real world, (where we all sadly benefit from child labor, where mass shootings are a norm and perpetual war is here to stay) we must make sure they haven't heard bad words. 

From the CU guidelines, I’m confused about this statement:

“References to historical and current events that are/were meant to oppress individuals and groups must be considered in context and we must remain objective in our review and decision-making process. 

“e.g. Holocaust, Slavery, Trail of Tears, Nazi, Confederacy, KKK”

Is this saying they may or may not be offensive depending on ... what?  Does it depend on whether / how they are combined with other words? Or is it referring to the context back in history when those words arose and so a route named just KKK is ok?  Last I checked, those were not on the list (draft) of categorically offensive words.

Note:  I am not asking if they are categorically offensive. Just for now, what is the “context” that would be considered?

Let's get down to brass tacks here folks: This is about not being assholes when we name routes on **public lands**. The ACC is just providing rudimentary guidelines that we all actually know if we think about it.

Even non- climbers are entitled to not hear some prominence has been named forever more (despite the lyric poetry) Assblasters Offwidth in Heat with Mick etc. If I am allowed to paraphrase the original poet.

It's hard to get allies to help us maintain access and help preserve what little left there is on this crowded planet while childishly insulting a fair portion of them.

You can still be an asshole all you want at home. Just act in your usual narcissistic self interest to climb and keep the asshole on the down low to help/keep open our crags and everybody wins.

Standard playground rules. It's not hard.

Sprayloard Overstokerwrote:

Let's get down to brass tacks here folks: This is about not being assholes when we name routes on **public lands**.

Even non- climbers are entitled to not hear some prominence has been named forever more (despite the lyric poetry) Assblasters Offwidth in Heat with Mick etc.

It's hard to get allies to help us maintain access and help preserve what little left there is on this crowded planet while childishly insulting a fair portion of them.

You can still be an asshole all you want. Just act in your usual narcissistic self interest to climb and keep the asshole on the down low to help/keep open our crags and everybody wins.

Standard playground rules. It's not hard.

Well explained actually, plus the cool people "in the know" will know what the real names are anyway. Still though, I'm not really for cleaning up any names but if it happens I wont be a part of any riots and climbing wont change for me at all.

Currently, the MP database has a redacted route named “KKK”.  If the CU guideline is put in place without mod, does that route name return to unredacted? It looks that way to me - but am unsure.

And, no, I don’t subscribe to the “I just won’t be an asshole” crowd. Insufficient.

I could sign on with the “I’ll try, but tell me if you think my route name is offensive and why ... and  I will seriously consider renaming” crowd.

Bottom line with renaming: A Commodified name tossed onto a route in lieu of the FAs name will always rank as illegitimate, no matter how many Collectivists vote to change them.

I will be sure to spearhead the effort to spam asterisks over every illegitimate name that gets posted.

This does not preclude continued censoring and redacting of the vulgar too.

17 pages on this? Jesus. This is rediculous.
They’re climbing route names. If the name is offensive to you, put on your adult pants and climb it or keep walking.
If you’re putting up new routes, don’t be a Jack ass and name it something you would repeat to your grandmother.
It’s a climbing route, 99.9% of the population doesn’t give a fuck about climbing. We’re not that great.

B Pwrote:

17 pages on this? Jesus. This is rediculous.
They’re climbing route names. If the name is offensive to you, put on your adult pants and climb it or keep walking.
If you’re putting up new routes, don’t be a Jack ass and name it something you would repeat to your grandmother.
It’s a climbing route, 99.9% of the population doesn’t give a fuck about climbing. We’re not that great.

Agree again

B Pwrote:

17 pages on this? Jesus. This is rediculous.
They’re climbing route names. If the name is offensive to you, put on your adult pants and climb it or keep walking.
If you’re putting up new routes, don’t be a Jack ass and name it something you would repeat to your grandmother.
It’s a climbing route, 99.9% of the population doesn’t give a fuck about climbing. We’re not that great.

Bro, don't be a sheeple. This isn't about climbing names. This is about culture wars. Or Nazis. Or (and I still think this is the most likely one) season 8 of Game of Thrones. 

Remember that nothing is ever what it is, it's always about something else. And probably about a stupid something else.

JonasMRwrote:

Bro, don't be a sheeple. This isn't about climbing names. This is about culture wars. Or Nazis. Or (and I still think this is the most likely one) season 8 of Game of Thrones. 

Remember that nothing is ever what it is, it's always about something else. And probably about a stupid something else.

Stop acting like you watched Game of thrones for anything other than the T n A

B Pwrote:

Stop acting like you watched Game of thrones for anything other than the T n A

Damn straight! I feel owed at least 4x as much T and 3x as much A. Reshoot it!

^^^ And there you have it.

greg miller wrote:

I still would love to know how/who/why my route “that bitch Carole Baskin” got redacted and it’s a direct quote and we all know she guilty...FYI apparently B**** will pass for getting a naughty words posted... what’s next my route “cowboy butts drive me nuts”?! #maybetheydomaybetheydont  sensitive/woke  people will make way for people developing routes not share them for the “community” or at least good luck knowing how to use a compass.

I searched for it and it is there, not redacted.. The Bitch part is partially asterisked, but that has been pretty common for publishing what some consider "swear words", kind of like "F**king the Dog", an old route at Rumney. I am not for a lot of the redacting silliness, but there is something to be said for common courtesy and not being completely uncouth.

greg miller wrote:

It was redacted with the initial “B” word and  I don’t know what common courtesy is or what the word “uncouth” means..

Look them up up if you don't have a parent to tell you