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New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #16
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I, for one, don't think anyone should ever tell anyone when or if they should lead climb. Leading, like soloing, is a very personal choice. You can be totally self-sufficient (albeit limiting your routes) and never lead anything. Enough unsolicited advice. More importantly: Lori, I'm curious - why is your season over until October? I know it starts getting pretty warm in JTree in May, but you sound like you're hanging up your climbing shoes until October 1. Did something unpleasant happen, and you need a break? As for me, not much to report. I got to the local gym again on my lunch break yesterday. Again did all the routes on the autobelays up to 11-, and this time got that last one clean. My right forearm is not terribly happy with me today, despite the high levels of ibuprofen (and daily icing) I've been doing since last week. I'll keep going only once a week and keep up the ice and ibuprofen and see what happens for one more week, and if things get worse I guess I'll go see a doc. Meanwhile, might actually get outside this weekend with the family. Considering Crow Hill, or possibly Farley. We'll see who wants to join us and where they want to go. With a three year old we can't really do anything on our own. GO |
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I'll wade into this with a few points. First, Lori and Helen are climbing at such different levels and, it seems to me, with such different goals that I don't think the suggestions to Lori necessarily apply to Helen. Second, IMO there's a spectrum between client and climber. For myself, I started out seconding my husband, who was better and bolder. It took about 4 years before I did some easy leads, more years before I upped my lead game, and still more before I led beginner friends up some climbs. Everyone has to find their own comfort level and pace and that may be especially true for people coming to climbing without a background in physical activities. (You should have seen me trying to learn to telemark. No, actually you shouldn't have.) |
Lori Milaswrote: Glad you can appreciate my thoughts, though it sounds like they don't ring true for you. As I said, that's okay. I couldn't agree more that climbing is an individual journey. Yours is not mine, and mine is not yours. But we also can share a lot along the way when we climb with each other and talk with each other about climbing, and MP can facilitate both of these. You say that it was "instructive" to you that you and Alex H's mom were not prepared to head out and lead stuff, but you did climb together with help. But you don't say what the "lesson" was, and given your other posts on the subject, I really can't guess what you took from this experience. Care to say more? GO |
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My first couple of years climbing outside I didn't lead. Me and my buddies all toproped, although a few of them were learning to lead. I remember one person who asked if I wanted to follow them up something. I agreed to, since they needed someone. It took them forever to get up the damn thing, and was both easy to follow and frustrating to take out all that gear. I thought to myself: "Leading is stupid". And the truth is, there was plenty for me to do at my local crags around Boston, and no need for me to lead. Me and my friends were self-sufficient climbers going out and exploring, pushing our limits, and having fun. And that was quite enough. Then I took a trip to Yosemite Valley and everything changed. But that's kind of beside the point: I agree with Wendy - everyone's journey is different. And if you are setting your own agenda, doing what you can do, exploring what it means to move over rocks, (whether big or little), and you're not coming home dead or injured, IMO you're a climber. GO |
GabeOwrote: Hmmm. My thoughts right now are not wonderful, and it's a temptation to do what so many have done and just walk away. Climbing is hard enough without having to deal with criticism and judgment coming out of nowhere. It's lovely to think of us all as 'family' but that is somewhat a fantasy. Maybe time to shatter that myth. Yet we've been at it for 17,000 posts... and I've learned so much here. I've received some great advice. Some years ago Wendy explained to me what a 'puffy" is... and that changed my winters here forever. Dallas talked about nomads and castle builders, and snake sticks vs sticks... and alot about navigation when I couldn't find my way from my car to a crag a block away. I was getting dangerously lost and SO frustrated. There was an entire summer folks here taught how to use a compass and Google Earth etc. Randy gave me the best advice ever, to put down the gizmos and just look around, learn to use a map and get comfortable navigating on my feet. Randy has been silently in the background here, offering input when something was really important--never criticizing false starts or very newby angst. Guy has been so encouraging. Was it Russ who helped me figure out the garden here? Coming into this game just a few years ago knowing NOTHING... I've relied on people who DO know something, and who can teach. Bob has never pushed, in fact, he's been the voice of reason who has pulled me back many times. I can fairly say he has ALWAYS been right. Bob has seen me with low blood sugars, panic attacks, and with 'the kit' which holds all the meds to revive me in the event of a significant low blood sugar. He sees my strengths, and my weaknesses... and I need that. I think we also are testing the limits of my 67 year old non-athletic body... as Helen has been testing the limits of her knees, etc. There is so much I would LIKE to be doing, but wisely right now do not. It is wonderful to hear similar stories of how you all evolved, and how long it took to move from thing to thing, and where you are now. I have seen Brandt's leading, and think that's wonderful, too. It's obvious what a good climber he is and was. Whoever thinks that I 'should' be leading... have we met? Who says I have NOT lead, or couldn't lead quite well? Just curious. Have we climbed together? I'm running my own race, so to speak. I'm listening to my heart (a Tom Petty song)... "it's gonna tell her what to do". I love climbing. I was SO HIGH from finally seeing the top of Run For Your Life... now I am supposed to rain on that parade because I did not lead it? REALLY? It was SUCH an accomplishment, fueling more and further dreams for me. (but I didn't lead it). I mean, really... what's it to you? -------------- Ok. a few answers: Regarding 'season ending'... I just had to put an endpoint on my 'season' here. I will continue to climb as much as possible, but my big ticks this year were the main Dave Houser routes... and with RFYL I got in all I could. For a minute here I'm going to stop pushing. I'm just so happy about this and it felt like the end of so much really hard and persistent work! (I think Dave would have been proud). I'll continue climbing a couple of times a week, and in July up in Donner, but I want to let this time be a place of consideration. I want to feel my way on whether I am ready to focus on developing anchoring and leading skills... all the trad skills? Or do I want to continue to press on towards greater/more exciting routes that would always have to be on top rope? My crack skills still suck. I really want to climb That Old Soft Shoe, EBGB's, and geez... could I EVER climb Bob's Runaway? I have NO DESIRE to lead these routes. None. Zip. It's a time to just enjoy the rock and listen to those internal cues. I'll know come September. Re. Dierdre (Honnold). Dierdre, who has a famous son, and I'd say some very serious coaching... even with all that we both have learned, the two of still needed help putting up top ropes. I could not have set up Billabong... not in a million years. It was quite the shocker for me to learn that I couldn't even carry a rope up to the top of Granny Goose alone... and that's not a big crag. The last part up Granny Goose is hard scrambling. So... with two women who have each had some training and practice, we couldn't climb alone. That's all. We still needed help. And I accept that. I guess one last thought. As I set off on Run For Your LIfe those first few yards off the ground were hard. In fact, I thought... oh, shit... I don't think I can do this. I hollered back to Zach, who had just led up Runaway... "feel free to coach me!" That first lap was a lot of coaching. I'm not yet ready to just head up a 10b without any beta. Once Zach chimed in and suggested a long lean over to the left, and a few crimps I didn't see... that second lap went like a breeze. I appreciate all the help I can get.  |
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Lori- congratulations on the send!! Have a bitchin summer. |
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Lori - I hope nothing I said made you feel the need to diminish you accomplishment. I have climbed some days with partners who never lead anything, and I have climbed some days when my partner does all the leading. Either way can be a good day out on the rocks. If you're around this summer and feel like a morning or evening session on some easy routes, I'm here! |
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The lead vs follow (or top rope) conversation is complicated. If I'm at or near my limit, leading isn't my first impulse. When I go climbing with friends, there's always a conversation about who puts up the climb. I'm super happy that I've grown enough as a climber that I can say "Sure! I'll do it!" I've realized with long term partners, that I've been creating a karmic debt over the years, so being the one who steps up gives me some real satisfaction. It's true that you shouldn't feel external (peer) pressure to lead, but I do think having internal pressure to lead is part of the game. If you are trying to get better, then leading is a part of that progression. It's also part of your relationship with your climbing partner(s). |
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I think in a way it's quite funny that every now and again someone pops up and suggests to Lori that she lead. And I think "here we go again"... |
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But didn’t Lori bring up the question of leading herself? I don’t think anyone started out of the blue - they were responding to questions she posed. I don’t think anyone really cares one way or another if she (or anyone else leads), but she did seem to ask for advice/support from what I interpreted. |
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Annother thought for lori. its your journey. however you feel it wants to go is your choice and the best path for you. Just understand that you are talking with a bunch of addicts who just are trying to get you hooked on our drug... we mean well but we are so caught up in our own addiction that our advice needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt... |
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To those who have interpreted my previous post as disparaging anyone in particular, I disagree and think you are reading way more into the text than is there. My contention is that the lessons that can be learned from climbing (and applied to life in at least my case) will not be fully realized if you are never on the sharp end and taking those risks. |
Old lady Hwrote: Hi Helen, For me, leading just adds another component, another level of interest. There is an aspect of being fully present in a very specific way when you are leading, especially if you are leading something R-rated. After years of meditation practice, leading was actually the first place where I learned what being completely present felt like, what completely quieting the monkey mind felt like, and that was certainly a huge gift because it soon carried over to the time I wasn't climbing as well. I don't ever feel like I have to lead everything, I fully enjoy seconding things my partners have led. But somebody has to get the rope up there. I would guess in a typical year that I lead 60-70% of the pitches I do, because that works out better for me and my current partners and the routes we want to do together. Yet, I would certainly keep climbing as a second if I couldn't lead any more because I absolutely love the movement of climbing, the instantaneous analysis that is going on as you move up, and the feeling of climbing that stays as happiness in my body after the route is done. I treasure the time spent in nature - all the stuff you see lots of other people never see. I treasure the time spent laughing with friends. Everybody's journey is different, and their own. No judgement. Keep having fun! |
ErikaNWwrote: Oh I may have missed that. Does seem that either the general MP forum (or maybe climbers in general) seem to, at times, sort of place different styles of clambering on some sort of hierarchical structure. I'd be happy to TR until the end of my days really, although I do all kinds of climbing. Apart from ice climbing as that's just silly EDIT or speed climbing as that's even more silly. |
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I was over at Cap Rock yesterday, mucking up a mantle on Event Horizon. Maybe my problem with mantles is they are not lady-like.. butt up in the air. I've been looking at that rock and wondering about the front face which seems massive. Bob sent over a video of Duncecap ... a route put up by The Kid! (Kurt Smith)
So. After watching Jeremy on Dog Day Afternoon... and Nelson on Caveman .. and now Chris Linder work his way up Duncecap, I realize ho much I'd like to work on getting strong enough to do some more bouldery-type problems. It seems the perfect interlude. I can't think of another route I've been on that has all the stuff that Dog Day Afternoon has. It was one surprise after another for me--it would be nice to really do that one right. A great project. Here I am on a delicate little part of the route...  Here's Jeremy... on that same route. 
 Here's Jeremy at same spot... doing it right the first time. Those kids.  |
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So... I guess a few more thoughts this morning before we move on. (Thank you for the laugh, Carl.. "oh, here we go again") I trust that we each have plenty of stoke, or we wouldn't be here. For myself, maybe it's the mom in me that wants to be careful... as careful as possible on dangerous missions. Wendy's story of how her climbing evolved is really helpful. I think this just unfolds as it should, over time. Also... each of us has different inspiration. Clearly a lot of folks here love to be on the sharp end. I just want to do "that" (the above pictures)... on or off lead. I just want to climb. Whatever Jeremy just did, I want to try it. I'd prefer not to fall to my death doing so. I'd still like to know what everyone's workout routine is. And what are you working TOWARDS? About 6 weeks ago I got the Whoop. I wanted to understand what my body was going through, how to explain days of total wipeout, days when I couldn't see straight... and then days when it suddenly all went right. So far, this band has delivered, especially with regards to Strain and Sleep. I had no idea that, for instance, while I was in bed for 9.5 hours last night, I only slept for 6 (with 11 interruptions... Tony was sick). Also... I don't know whether to be concerned or not... my max heart rate elevates a lot during times of peak climbing. Yesterday it was 154 during one short period of climbing. On DDA it was 172. I thought the Whoop was malfunctioning--so I called them, talked to their tech team. We changed how I wore it. I hit the same Max Heart Rate on RFYL... 172. Yesterday I wore an Apple Watch on the other arm to check those numbers... they match up.  I guess I have to talk this over with my doctor just in case. But... one thing for sure... I would never work this hard in the gym. Climbing is the one endeavor I will push to the limit on. Maybe this explains why I don't resonate with Bob's word 'relax' during climbing. |
Lori Milaswrote: Nice sends! Some more unsolicited advice from another random stranger on the internet - Climb whatever the hell you want in any style that makes you happy! |
ErikaNWwrote: No, Carl is right she didn't bring it up - Locker did. Lori, you set some lofty goals for yourself, and you achieved so much. No-one can take that away from you, and I don't think anyone here is trying to diminish your accomplishment. I have been climbing for twenty-something years, and I know I for one couldn't get up a mid-ten J Tree slab! So you should be proud. The goals I set for myself this year went out the window with Covid. Maybe there's just a tinge of jealousy from some here that you're thriving while some of us are languishing? Anyway, you answered my question, and I appreciate your candor when you say this:
I could be wrong, but I think I hear some sadness and disappointment in the above. If you let it be, disappointment can be the first steps in growth. You go on to say that you "accept" that you need help to climb, but I just want to make it clear that you don't need a lead climber to climb in J-Tree. With your determination, and your good relationships with guides, I have zero doubt that if you wanted to take the warm summer months (when climbing the hard slab routes that inspire you is not so much fun) to really spend some time scrambling around in your playground of J-Tree, you could figure out which domes you can scramble to the top of. You could increase your proficiency in setting topropes. You could, I'd wager, get to the point where you could play guide for a visiting climber like Dierdre next fall, if that's what you wanted to do. But my point is only to present an idea - an idea of self-sufficiency - that does not require heading into the big and much more demanding world of lead climbing. I just want to open door. Whether you want to walk through it or not is entirely up to you. Cheers, GO |
Lori Milaswrote: I am stuck in FL so I am a conissor of wood and plastic climbing these days, but I have a trip planned to the Gunks for most of July :) I hit the climbing gym 3x per week, basic barbell strength work 2x per week, and easy cardio 2-3x per week. In the short term - I just want to be fit for NY trip so I can get in lots of mileage in on real rock. In the long term, - I am still exploring how, and what types of climbing will fit into my life so I don't have any route goals right now. I see the NY trip as a chance to explore my psych level for leading trad again(after ~20 years), and climbing harder grades on top rope. I never really sport climbed outside so maybe in the fall I can get up to RRG or LV and see how I feel about that. So for now I just want to keep improving my climbing skills and fitness while enjoying the adventures. |
GabeOwrote: Gabe... I'm just touched. You have been so generous and kind in your missives... and I just want to take a minute here to respond. Much of my life story is old news on this thread. But maybe not... Not so long ago I lost a son, and then my mother, and then my best friend. That was after a punishing 20 years of hard work at my business, and terrible times a single mother of four kids where I was simply unwilling to leave my post while there were endless od's, rehabs, jails, and deep need and sadness for two of my kids. At the end of that I was sick, depleted and never smiling--so much grief and fear. My one prayer through all those times when my friends and mother would ask me why I wasn't out on cruises..."Lori, these should be the best years of your life!"... my one prayer was "God, if I stick this through to the very end and don't abandon my family, please don't let me have cancer or something horrid to show for it. Let me find a little joy before I die." So... last year I made a run for it. I gave away almost everything I owned, sold my house, left my business with one employee to cover things, and bought a little house here in Joshua Tree with Tony. I think on this moment as the reprieve I was praying for... my 'furlough', or maybe even my honorable discharge. Before now It was time to keep my nose to the plow--which I did faithfully-- and now it's time to rest from hardship. So, I believe it's my new job to grab some life. To pack in all the romping and playing I can, for whatever days/years I am given. I take this play very seriously, because honestly, I could easily return to more work and family needs. This is my new 9-5 job (playing). I suit up and show up every day ready for fun. And it's not lost on me that most people at this moment are not out climbing and having fun. I felt real empathy with Helen all winter, knowing she was stuck there in some cold dreary weather, with nothing to climb. And everyone else here, isolated due to COVID.... and besides, who gets to just live where they can climb every day? So, this is a privileged, rare, gracious gift... my living here now in this unbelievable place and getting to pretend I'm an ace climber, out on legendary rocks. And you nailed my summer plans. Last summer was my first here... I didn't know the park would be so completely empty and quiet, so I could go romp and explore and play like a child. This summer I intend to do exactly what you suggested... take my rope, my rack, and maybe a friend or two, and go see what I can see. There is a season for everything. Sometimes we take the work/childrearing season to heart and do it well, but then fail to appreciate the gifted time of rest and play. I know trouble is coming, because it always will in this lifetime... but it's not here now. I'm learning to embrace the now. (and this is why I post as I do here.... )
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