Sunshine Wall UT Petroglyph Bolting

Trevor Taylorwrote:

The situation here is: he was wrong ->don’t do that-> person apologizes ->we accept that apology

I am not saying forgive before recognizing the problem. 

I was with ya until the part where he lied about not knowing they were petroglyphs. In his apology to fellow climbers on MP. 

I'm not sure piling on helps. But I do hope that he can reach a more honest place of contrition before it's time to apologize to groups that matter more.

I am usually the first to go against the pitchfork crowd but this is an extreme case that directly affects every climber in this country.  This is seriously bad shit that has the potential to  shut down climbing access on hundreds of thousands of acres of public land. 

R Gwrote:

... When these routes were being bolted I imagined a family hanging out, a dad and his young son/daughter climbing and the joy a 12 year old would get on their first lead. 

How about you imagine a family driving out over a beautiful high desert landscape to have a picnic, scramble around, and reverently marvel at millennia-old Fremont rock art that has preserved the stories of people who have come before? How is that family’s experience going to be now?

High Mountain Gearwrote:

I personally think that developing climbs in an area you are not connected to the community in some way is the problem. No one should be driving around on vacation with a drill, looking for stuff to put holes in. Bolting a route is kind of serious stuff. 

I agree completely. Unfortunately this wall is almost 100% tourist. When the wall was first bolted it was bolted for the exact same reason that Gilbert said was his reason, to give an area to the beginners. It was already the easiest crag within 30 miles of Moab.

All of this could have been avoided easily, unfortunately FAs and buying drills has become some weird norm for some climbers.

R Gwrote:

When I first started climbing in 2008 I noticed that there are very few routes available to the disabled community and to people who are just starting out. So, I bolt easy routes.

I support your sentiment.  Clear Creek Canyon is close to home for you and definitely supports bolting easy routes.  Local ethics should be considered.

The ORIGINAL text on that image said “there is graffiti at the top of this climb. Please do NOT add to it.” Once I was notified that it was actually petroglyphs, I changed the text so others would know that it was NOT graffiti. If you go back to the first few posts on this thread you will even see others mention this. 

JonasMRwrote:

I was with ya until the part where he lied about not knowing they were petroglyphs. In his apology to fellow climbers on MP.

Since everything has been deleted you can’t see the original script. 

Matt Wetmore wrote:

Considering he thought a petroglyph was graffiti maybe he was just very ignorant? See comments on mountainproject.com/route/1…

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

No, I don’t know what you mean, because name one time in human history where punishment worked? Vendetta culture, machismo, it just leads to more of the same. I believe we even fought a Second World War because we punished the losers of the first. 

I am not sure the second WW was because we punished Germany too much.  

Since the allies never actually occupied Germany in 1918, the German people were able to believe the Nazi lie that "the Jews/bankers/others" sold us out, we didn't actually militarily lose the war.

That is why in the next go-round, we made sure that the population knew that they lost, by fire bombing their cities, Nuremburg trials and a long occupation. No mistaking complete capitulation for a Jewish plot. 

Being stupid enough to mistake petroglyphs for graffiti is exactly why you shouldn’t be bolting routes as a tourist. Also, graffiti or not, it shows that multiple people have climbed the route before you decided to bolt it. It looks like you’ve placed bolts right next to a crack too? I get that you’re trying to provide access to people who want easy climbs which is cool, but you have actually possibly caused an access issue. I think you need to sell your drill. 

Look Richard.

1. Don’t harm yourself. If you need someone to talk to I am here for you.

2. Don’t try to explain this away, everyone is just gonna get upset.

3. Just try to be open to criticism, but you ought to step away from MP. It’s not going to ve helpful

High Mountain Gearwrote:

Look Richard.

1. Don’t harm yourself. If you need someone to talk to I am here for you.

2. Don’t try to explain this away, everyone is just gonna get upset.

3. Just try to be open to criticism, but you ought to step away from MP. It’s not going to ve helpful

Sound advice!

I don’t want to hide from this like a coward. I’ll take the tongue lashing from people, I deserve it. I’m here to take responsibility and if people need to crucify me then that’s fine. I made a mistake and I’m here to pay the consequences.

Thank you for the support and compassion though! 

I would like to remind everyone that threatening behavior is not allowed on mountain project.

Richard, please stop bolting in the desert.  

High Mountain Gearwrote:

I personally think that developing climbs in an area you are not connected to the community in some way is the problem. No one should be driving around on vacation with a drill, looking for stuff to put holes in. Bolting a route is kind of serious stuff.

i wouldn't say i agree with this.  a lot of good routes at a lot of different areas have been put up by non-locals.  also, how do you define being "connected" to a community?  i define being a local as having lived and climbed at one general area for 20 years or more.  some folks define being a local as working as a guide/waiter/etc at an area for a summer.  if i have a friend that lives near an area, does that count as a connection?  what if an area gives me a cosmic vibe, does that count?

in some ways i think locals can be the worst about bolting stuff that could have been left alone.  think of how many areas have small, short, 1-star squeeze jobs simply because the locals were running out of fresh canvas.  or endless criss-crossing linkups (probably my absolute least favorite thing).

I'd say this warrants getting rid of the drill altogether.

Buck Riowrote:

I am not sure the second WW was because we punished Germany too much.  

Since the allies never actually occupied Germany in 1918, the German people were able to believe the Nazi lie that "the Jews/bankers/others" sold us out, we didn't actually militarily lose the war.

That is why in the next go-round, we made sure that the population knew that they lost, by fire bombing their cities, Nuremburg trials and a long occupation. No mistaking complete capitulation for a Jewish plot. 

Na, its exactly why WWII happened. History teacher here, Germany was saddled with war reparations that economically crippled the country. In fact, it took over 90 years for Germany to pay these reparations. Germany was also forced to accept full responsibility for the war and lost 13 percent of its territory in Europe, including its industrial heartland in the Rhine and etc. I have studied and taught history most of my adult life and I have not seen any scholarly work that suggest the seeds of WWII were not planted with the harsh terms of the Treaty of Versailles. In fact, Woodrow Wilson specifically mentioned the reconciliation with Germany as key to creating a world without war. The European Allies however, still chose the punitive route with Germany. Ultimately, the punitive terms of the Treaty of Versailles led to a desperate population and instability in the country, out of this instability rose Hitler. Sorry for thread drift, just a bored history teacher. 

 "The Treaty of Versailles didn't just blame Germany for the war—it demanded financial restitution for the whole thing, to the tune of 132 billion gold marks, or about $269 billion today."  

"Reparations further strained the economic system, and the Weimar Republic printed money as the mark’s value tumbled. Hyperinflation soon rocked Germany. By November 1923, 42 billion marks were worth the equivalent of one American cents"

You started off with good intentions, but you f-ed up.  No amount of justification or rationalization is going to change anything. At best you were ignorant, at worst, you didn't care. Either way, make things right. Take your medicine. Learn. Move on.

Lee Chandler wrote:

Na, its exactly why WWII happened. History teacher here, Germany was saddled with war reparations that economically crippled the country. In fact, it took over 90 years for Germany to pay these reparations. Germany was also forced to accept full responsibility for the war and lost 13 percent of its territory in Europe, including its industrial heartland in the Rhine and etc. I have studied and taught history most of my adult life and I have not seen any scholarly work that suggest the seeds of WWII were not planted with the harsh terms of the Treaty of Versailles. In fact, Woodrow Wilson specifically mentioned the reconciliation with Germany as key to creating a world without war. The European Allies however, still chose the punitive route with Germany. Ultimately, the punitive terms of the Treaty of Versailles led to a desperate population and instability in the country, out of this instability rose Hitler. Sorry for thread drift, just a bored history teacher. 

 "The Treaty of Versailles didn't just blame Germany for the war—it demanded financial restitution for the whole thing, to the tune of 132 billion gold marks, or about $269 billion today."  

"Reparations further strained the economic system, and the Weimar Republic printed money as the mark’s value tumbled. Hyperinflation soon rocked Germany. By November 1923, 42 billion marks were worth the equivalent of one American cents"

Its funny, France was saddled with even MORE crushing terms after the Franco-Prussian War in 1871, and was able to meet the demands, and even paid them off early. Germans must be made of weaker stuff than the Gaul's eh?

After the Franco-Prussian War, according to conditions of Treaty of Frankfurt (May 10, 1871), France was obliged to pay a war indemnity of 5 billion gold francs in 5 years. The indemnity was proportioned, according to population, to be the exact equivalent to the indemnity imposed by Napoleon on Prussia in 1807. German troops remained in parts of France until the last installment of the indemnity was paid in September 1873, ahead of schedule.

R Gwrote:

The ORIGINAL text on that image said “there is graffiti at the top of this climb. Please do NOT add to it.” Once I was notified that it was actually petroglyphs, I changed the text so others would know that it was NOT graffiti. If you go back to the first few posts on this thread you will even see others mention this. 

How can anyone who spends any time in Moab, Indian Creek, et al not know about ancient rock art?

Sorry Richard, I just don't buy your graffiti excuse.