Sunshine Wall UT Petroglyph Bolting

Andrew Gramwrote:

I'm fairly inclined to delete the whole area to keep those petroglyphs off the radar - any objections before i swing the axe?

I personally think it would be more effective and educational to leave it up and add in a “no climbing” area where the petroglyphs are. I believe that would help prevent this situation from ever happening at this location again. 

Andrew Gramwrote:

I'm fairly inclined to delete the whole area to keep those petroglyphs off the radar - any objections before i swing the axe?

I personally think it would be more effective and educational to leave it up and add in a “no climbing” area where the petroglyphs are. I believe that would help prevent this situation from ever happening at this location again. 

RICHARD GILBERTwrote:

I

Thee?

RICHARD GILBERTwrote:

I personally think it would be more effective and educational to leave it up and add in a “no climbing” area where the petroglyphs are. I believe that would help prevent this situation from ever happening at this location again. 

I personally think that developing climbs in an area you are not connected to the community in some way is the problem. No one should be driving around on vacation with a drill, looking for stuff to put holes in. Bolting a route is kind of serious stuff. Within a few hours there will be something that people will either love for the next 100 years, erase what could have been something better, or ruined what was a perfectly fine rock doing its own thing. 

We can’t have signs all over the place pointing out stuff, otherwise there would be a lot of signs. That’s why driving sucks, and the outdoors is awesome. You gotta learn, ask, and be receptive to learning. Being humble is paramount to being a good route developer, and generally a decent person. 

High Mountain Gearwrote:

We can’t have signs all over the place pointing out stuff, otherwise there would be a lot of signs.

I was referencing a write up within Mountain Project. Instead of axing the area, create a post within the guidebook section. 

Michael Rushwrote:

First of all, I don’t yell at kids.

Second, when I hear someone use the word probably 4 times in 3 paragraphs,  it turns in to speculation bs.

Why are you defending this guy and his actions?

We should live in a world that prioritizes forgiveness over condemnation.

Is there an apology somewhere I missed?

Trevor Taylorwrote:

We should live in a world that prioritizes forgiveness over condemnation.

That really means a lot to me Trevor! I’ve been climbing that area and developing routes there for 4 years and I honest-to-God believed this was 100% graffiti! I’m committed and dedicated to making the situation right and making sure this never happens again!

It is rather sad that I’ve received death threats from complete strangers so it is very refreshing seeing people take a step back, analyze the situation, and react with compassion. Thank you! 

Pnelsonwrote:

This guy needs to get banned from MP and then prosecuted to the max of the law. Just when you think that the hordes of bottomfeeders slinking around Moab can’t get any worse...

O.K., I'll bite.  Who are the hordes of bottomfeeders slinking around Moab?

greg miller wrote:

Good on you for going ground up though, bad on you for placing bolts next to something you assumed red necks free soloed and chiseled an H, just to claim the FA.

People have contacted my work, my friends, sent death threats, told me I deserve to rot in prison for the rest of my life, etc etc 

honestly, to me, it looked like a group of high school kids got high AF and chiseled the rock. I thought the “H” was a helo landing pad symbol and below that there appeared to be a golf hole flag.

I bolt easy routes because I spent two years in a hospital after being injured in Iraq and I can’t climb harder than a 5.8. When I first started climbing in 2008 I noticed that there are very few routes available to the disabled community and to people who are just starting out. So, I bolt easy routes. When these routes were being bolted I imagined a family hanging out, a dad and his young son/daughter climbing and the joy a 12 year old would get on their first lead. Like they say though, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

As soon as someone pointed out that the image was a man holding a spear I packed my car and began driving out to fix my mistake. I made a mistake and I deserve the harsh language I’m getting from others, I was taught to take responsibility for my actions and that’s what I’m doing. 

R Gwrote:

honestly, to me, it looked like a group of high school kids got high AF and chiseled the rock. 

Yeah, like thousands of years ago.

I thought the “H” was a helo landing pad symbol and below that there appeared to be a golf hole flag.

As soon as someone pointed out that the image was a man holding a spear I packed my car and began driving out to fix my mistake.

This you?

Thanks Richard.  

We all make mistakes and not all own up to it.  

Clearly Richard was in the wrong here but it's quite insane how intense this thread is.  Maybe take a second before you type what your knee-jerk reaction was?  

R Gwrote:

That really means a lot to me Trevor! I’ve been climbing that area and developing routes there for 4 years and I honest-to-God believed this was 100% graffiti! 

I don't have a pitchfork out, but if the above is true then why did you clearly label your pictures as petroglyphs when you first added them? 

I thought the “H” was a helo landing pad symbol

If so, why did you call it a petroglyph with a man and a spear when you first added the photo then?

If you thought they were graffiti, then why did you clearly label your photos as petroglyphs when you first added them? This just doesn't add up.

Also I have a hard time believing that someone would mistake those petroglyphs for modern grafitti. It seems like a cop out story that you are going to tell the BLM so they will go easy on you. Personally, I don't believe it, especially since you clearly labeled your photos as petroglyphs when you first added them.

Hson Pwrote:

Richard Gilbert wrote:I honest-to-God believed this was 100% graffiti!

Your words say otherwise. You talk about accountability, start with telling the truth.

Two cents from a non-local:

Richard shouldn’t be the one to “go out there and make things right.” Dude, don’t go out and chop your bolts, fill the holes, etc, let BLM handle it. Own up and pay whatever fines are involved. 

Also, as others have pointed out, it sounds like you’re full of BS. Anything you do at this point aside from owning up to these actions is further damage. Telling the truth in full without a sob story is the first step to undoing what damage can be undone. 

R Gwrote:

People have contacted my work, my friends, sent death threats, told me I deserve to rot in prison for the rest of my life, etc etc 

honestly, to me, it looked like a group of high school kids got high AF and chiseled the rock. I thought the “H” was a helo landing pad symbol and below that there appeared to be a golf hole flag.

I bolt easy routes because I spent two years in a hospital after being injured in Iraq and I can’t climb harder than a 5.8. When I first started climbing in 2008 I noticed that there are very few routes available to the disabled community and to people who are just starting out. So, I bolt easy routes. When these routes were being bolted I imagined a family hanging out, a dad and his young son/daughter climbing and the joy a 12 year old would get on their first lead. Like they say though, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

As soon as someone pointed out that the image was a man holding a spear I packed my car and began driving out to fix my mistake. I made a mistake and I deserve the harsh language I’m getting from others, I was taught to take responsibility for my actions and that’s what I’m doing. 

Yes your altruism is dripping off the screen.

Trevor Taylorwrote:

We should live in a world that prioritizes forgiveness over condemnation.

When majority says: you’re wrong - don’t do that sh!t - and that person learns a lesson - then the world is in a better place for the future generations. It sets an example! 

When it’s: you’re forgiven, I understand, then future generations don’t get it.

KnowwhatImean? 

Ok bare with me here....

What if Tradiban is Richard Gilbert?

Ultimate 4D chess troll.

Michael Rushwrote:

When majority says: you’re wrong - don’t do that sh!t - and that person learns a lesson - then the world is in a better place for the future generations. It sets an example! 

When it’s: you’re forgiven, I understand, then future generations don’t get it.

KnowwhatImean? 

The situation here is: he was wrong ->don’t do that-> person apologizes ->we accept that apology

I am not saying forgive before recognizing the problem. 

The posters were pitchforking after the person was trying to make amends and I provided the update. If people just keep pitchforking forever which is what they seemed to be doing what is the gain? Also sending people death threats or dming him at this point is pointless. What would sending a dm right now do? Also advocating for a fine still I wouldn’t call a defense. Either way let’s stop beating this dead horse and let blm sort it out.

Edit: Jonas I think I got confused with the edited/missing posts either way my initial comment predated the suspect joining the thread.