New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #15

And stuff comes down all the time today that's funny as shit, but we can't tell those stories? 

Yes, you can - to your friends who share your feelings and your sense of humor. That's what I do, that's what most people do, yes?

Interesting seeing everyone's take on things. Good stuff.

So far as my story goes, which seems like a hundred posts ago, with a bit of fore-thought I could have told the whole thing without raising an eyebrow, especially the part about Paul circling the French climbers. He wasn't physically threatening, but he knew they had the cam. His manner was more than inquisitive, but he was also playing for the crowd. I dashed the thing off without any serious thought. It's just a story, and I'm not used to mincing my words, something which has almost gotten me beaten to a pulp more than once   .

Booty is booty, but when you walk up to someone knowing that they have your piece, and when you ask for it they play dumb, and all the while they're hiding the piece? Well, I think we all get that. Not cool.

Lori asks for ALL the old stories? Not a chance of that. I'd get booted off this forum in a quick minute. Around a campfire with a bottle of wine? That’s another story.

Also from Lori, 

“Some of the stories I'm particularly interested in are about the mindset and thought process you early climbers had in deciding what routes to set--what to climb, how to protect them.”

I’ll take on the third. I can only speak for myself, and maybe a few of my partners. For lack of a better way to put it, doing a new route – especially one with bolts – was a sort of sacred ritual. Placing a bolt was a big deal, something to be considered seriously, which is how we ended up with traditional climbs protected by bolts. I’ll make an example of a route I had nothing to do with, EBGB’s. The only pro is bolts, but the route is far from being a sport climb. Why? Because those guys had a minimalist mindset when it came to bolting, so the pitch is serious, it’s not for every climber. Falling has consequences. And of course, that minimalist mindset was also the result of some self-imposed rules. One was that climbing meant going up, so the thought of placing bolts on rappel was anathema (at the time, I thought of rap bolting as vandalism). On top of that, placing a bolt using aid was not in good style. Thus EBGB’s. The bolts were placed on lead without aid, drilling from stances. A trad route with bolts, put up in the best possible style.

Whatever formal education I have is in music, so here’s a musical example of this kind of minimal mindset. 

Near the end of his career Igor Stravinsky began to write music limiting himself to a set of pre-determined pitches in a specific sequence called a tone row. This, of course, made finding any combination of notes resembling a melody as we think of it nearly impossible. When asked about this style, he said that the self-imposed restrictions freed him, and made composing more adventurous and rewarding. I submit that doing a first ascent in traditional style is climbing’s equivalent to Stravinsky’s late in life musical adventure. But I digress.

The minimalist approach to bolting also dictated that a bolt would never be placed where some sort of clean pro could be used (the definition of “pro” being subjective). So, a route could be done which mixed up the use of bolts and gear. A good example of such a route in Josh would be Herb Laeger’s classic Heart and Sole.

Those kooks    who did EBGB’s were a couple of years ahead of me, so by the time I felt confident enough to find and do a new route, the use of hooks (aid) while drilling a bolt had been legitimized by John Bachar when he and Dave Yerian broke the mold establishing the Tuolumne Meadows test-piece, Bachar Yerian. Shortly after that, and partly because of it, Mike Lechlinski, Erik Eriksson, and Roy McClenahan did Liquid Sky, in The Needles. After those two ascents were made, hooking was okay. For me, the use of hooks opened up endless possibilities, and I took to the technique quickly, still climbing up, base to top, and still minimalizing the use of bolts. I learned fast that hard hooking is nuts. You need good footwork because if your body English isn’t just so the damn hook slips off the edge. Think of a thin right facing edge tilted at 45 degrees. To hook it you have to position yourself so you’re leaning left enough to keep the sucker in place. You’re not hanging on it so much as leaning on it. Footwork anyone? Once I’d done that sort of thing a few times I quit feeling any guilt in terms of style (despite Laeger’s constant admonitions). Herb and I went on to do a fair number of routes together, and we divided our duties. If Herb thought a bolt could go in from a stance he’d do it. I, as he called me, was the hooker. 

I should mention, hooking was not used to make upward progress, just to remain in place (hopefully) while placing a bolt. The hardest I ever pushed the envelope hooking was to do a route to the right of Rubicon called Seizure. For one of those bolts I had to use opposed hooks, pulling towards each other from thin edges facing in opposite directions. Then, every time I reached back to swing the hammer the damned things popped. Finally I got a hole about a quarter inch deep. It was time for the old Jim Bridwell trick. I climbed up, casually hooked the hole, and drilled the one for the bolt right above it, close enough so the hanger would cover the “cheater” hole when all was said and done.

Setting the hook. Once the hook looks good, the aiders get clipped to it, and the climber steps into the aiders and gets down to business. Gold Standard, Courtright Reservoir. I think Jan took the pic. Him or Keesee. Anyway, the whole thing was Jan's fault. He found it.

The first part of your question? Maybe that red-haired Scot named Jan can take it from here…

I agree, the French climbers didn’t acquit  themselves very well. 

They could have either said “here’s your cam dude, glad we could help,” or 

“We’ve got it and it’s ours now.”

I usually stay out of trouble, but afaik, most folks threatening to fight aren’t actually going to fight when it gets right down to it. 

The decent thing would have been to give it back, obviously

Idaho Bobwrote:

I came across a bail anchor at Red Rock.  .75 Camalot, large stopper, three 'biners, new cordalette.  I posted this on MP, was contacted by a person from SLC who had the right details.  I mailed the booty to him and requested that he send me a check for the postage, about $6.  Never heard from him again.

Time for public shame , out him!

So, more than a few of you have developed routes, and also have long experience.

Not something that's classic, but what is the opinion on stuff that seems to be bolted however, 20ish years or more ago? 

Rather a lot of my local stuff, if you peel trying to clip, or even just approaching the next bolt, you are pretty close to decking, or landing on a column that starts the climb. Here's one we were on yesterday. We both climbed up on the coffee table sized broken column that tall guy is standing next to. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/108178019/more-than-i-can-chew

I usually try to make these ground fall things as minimal as possible, with where I stand, and not having much slack out, etc, but, skim through anything less than 5.10, and there's rather a lot of this sort of bolting here. Ones that the guide says have been retro bolted, are largely 10 and up, often by Tedd Thompson. Some, still R, and 5.12! 

Just curious, why are these routes this way, and, with aging hardware, is it reasonable to shift bolts?

The climb near it, Almer Casile, now has mussy hooks! Yay ASCA!

Best, Helen

Old lady Hwrote:

So, more than a few of you have developed routes, and also have long experience.

Not something that's classic, but what is the opinion on stuff that seems to be bolted however, 20ish years or more ago? 

Rather a lot of my local stuff, if you peel trying to clip, or even just approaching the next bolt, you are pretty close to decking, or landing on a column that starts the climb. Here's one we were on yesterday. We both climbed up on the coffee table sized broken column that tall guy is standing next to. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/108178019/more-than-i-can-chew

I usually try to make these ground fall things as minimal as possible, with where I stand, and not having much slack out, etc, but, skim through anything less than 5.10, and there's rather a lot of this sort of bolting here. Ones that the guide says have been retro bolted, are largely 10 and up, often by Tedd Thompson. Some, still R, and 5.12! 

Just curious, why are these routes this way, and, with aging hardware, is it reasonable to shift bolts?

The climb near it, Almer Casile, now has mussy hooks! Yay ASCA!

Best, Helen

Respect the FAs bolting. Replace them if they are bad, rusted, etc, but do not change the bolt locations. 

Ask the FA, if he is alive, for permission to add or move bolts. Otherwise, wait until you are strong enough to lead it, as is.

I think you know this, right?

What Frank said

I love that Stravinsky was mentioned in this thread. Quite possibly my favorite composer. It also highlights for me how climbing and route development are a creative process, but not without structure and some guidelines, very much like music. 

One of my favorite climbing areas is in the South Platte of Colorado which has a long history of ground up ethic and some very runout slab climbing. I *enjoy* climbing *some* of these routes - it leaves me in awe of those who established them. Seems impossible to comprehend at times. They make you get your head screwed on straight that's for sure.

My thoughts about Helen's questions - I think someone mentioned up-thread somewhere that the manner in which the routes were established really does matter. If a route was bolted top-down on rappel, there is absolutely no excuse for ground fall potential at the 2nd/3rd bolts (in my opinion). That is just bad bolting. If it was bolted on lead from stances, well then, that is the nature of the route and possibly the only place a decent stance could be had to place the bolt. If the route is old enough (or in a wilderness area), it might have been hand-drilled which also impacts location and # of bolts.

I have friends who established some pretty bold climbs 20-30 years ago, and have since given permission (or gone back themselves) and added bolts to some routes where the risk was really too much. Hardware was expensive (still is!) and bolts were not wasted, but hopefully placed where they were needed and made sense to the FA. My one friend, who has established thousands of routes, said he honestly didn't think many people would ever climb those routes - he put them up for himself and his friends. I don't think anyone back then ever thought climbing would become as mainstream as it has. 

Anyway, interesting discussions. Thanks for the history Kristian!

Sure, not only do I know this, but I'm one to argue for leaving places more adventurous. I'm hoping no one adds anchors to the few routes remaining here without, honestly. 

I will also say, we have only had one fatality here (a gear anchor mishap), and not much for injuries. I have to wonder if it's because so many of the easier routes are, well, quite intimidating. As I said way upstream, the sub 5.10s aren't for sub 5.10 climbers. I'm talking sport. 

Two part question. Why did they get bolted in what seems like a really offhanded way? 

And two, sadly, we are approaching a time when the FAs simply may not be available. What then? 

Again, this isn't COR I'm talking about, just the local stuff. It's a small area, it is most of what there is, here, and for a sizable population that's booming.

What would you want in the future? Considering bolt wars BITD, and trad lines getting anchors, at the least? It likely won't stay as is. Change the bolting and preserve the grade? Hope whatever happens is long after we're all gone, lol? 

Personally, I'm super happy to be climbing while so many of you are not only still here, but still at it! 

It's just fodder for chitchat. 

Best, Helen

Thanks, Erika!

I kinda wonder if it was just "who cares", when it was a 5.7, 8, especially, and they were after big stuff, ultimately?

But? 

Well crap, then there's the truly hard stuff over at COR, same dudes, and some of it not repeated. Still. 

Part of this Frank, well, more than a little, is me getting excited to be back at City, soon! Plus, the even bigger stokefest of thinking about climbing with some really strong climbers! 

"Practice maximum enthusiasm!"

EDIT to add: 

Okay, my absolute favorite, makes me smile just thinking about it, even though I'll never ever do squat on it, route at COR?

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105741584/crack-of-doom

So there! :-)

H.

At a slide show someone asked me what is the best way to improve your climbing. The answer, of course, is to climb with climbers better than you.

Worked for me. Nothing like getting pushed past your limit... or what you thought that was. Embrace the psyche.

Kristian Solemwrote:

 

Interesting seeing everyone's take on things. Good stuff.

So far as my story goes, which seems like a hundred posts ago, with a bit of fore-thought I could have told the whole thing without raising an eyebrow, especially the part about Paul circling the French climbers. He wasn't physically threatening, but he knew they had the cam. His manner was more than inquisitive, but he was also playing for the crowd. I dashed the thing off without any serious thought. It's just a story, and I'm not used to mincing my words, something which has almost gotten me beaten to a pulp more than once   .

Booty is booty, but when you walk up to someone knowing that they have your piece, and when you ask for it they play dumb, and all the while they're hiding the piece? Well, I think we all get that. Not cool.

Lori asks for ALL the old stories? Not a chance of that. I'd get booted off this forum in a quick minute. Around a campfire with a bottle of wine? That’s another story.

Also from Lori, 

“Some of the stories I'm particularly interested in are about the mindset and thought process you early climbers had in deciding what routes to set--what to climb, how to protect them.”

I’ll take on the third. I can only speak for myself, and maybe a few of my partners. For lack of a better way to put it, doing a new route – especially one with bolts – was a sort of sacred ritual. Placing a bolt was a big deal, something to be considered seriously, which is how we ended up with traditional climbs protected by bolts. I’ll make an example of a route I had nothing to do with, EBGB’s. The only pro is bolts, but the route is far from being a sport climb. Why? Because those guys had a minimalist mindset when it came to bolting, so the pitch is serious, it’s not for every climber. Falling has consequences. And of course, that minimalist mindset was also the result of some self-imposed rules. One was that climbing meant going up, so the thought of placing bolts on rappel was anathema (at the time, I thought of rap bolting as vandalism). On top of that, placing a bolt using aid was not in good style. Thus EBGB’s. The bolts were placed on lead without aid, drilling from stances. A trad route with bolts, put up in the best possible style.

Whatever formal education I have is in music, so here’s a musical example of this kind of minimal mindset. 

Near the end of his career Igor Stravinsky began to write music limiting himself to a set of pre-determined pitches in a specific sequence called a tone row. This, of course, made finding any combination of notes resembling a melody as we think of it nearly impossible. When asked about this style, he said that the self-imposed restrictions freed him, and made composing more adventurous and rewarding. I submit that doing a first ascent in traditional style is climbing’s equivalent to Stravinsky’s late in life musical adventure. But I digress.

The minimalist approach to bolting also dictated that a bolt would never be placed where some sort of clean pro could be used (the definition of “pro” being subjective). So, a route could be done which mixed up the use of bolts and gear. A good example of such a route in Josh would be Herb Laeger’s classic Heart and Sole.

Those kooks    who did EBGB’s were a couple of years ahead of me, so by the time I felt confident enough to find and do a new route, the use of hooks (aid) while drilling a bolt had been legitimized by John Bachar when he and Dave Yerian broke the mold establishing the Tuolumne Meadows test-piece, Bachar Yerian. Shortly after that, and partly because of it, Mike Lechlinski, Erik Eriksson, and Roy McClenahan did Liquid Sky, in The Needles. After those two ascents were made, hooking was okay. For me, the use of hooks opened up endless possibilities, and I took to the technique quickly, still climbing up, base to top, and still minimalizing the use of bolts. I learned fast that hard hooking is nuts. You need good footwork because if your body English isn’t just so the damn hook slips off the edge. Think of a thin right facing edge tilted at 45 degrees. To hook it you have to position yourself so you’re leaning left enough to keep the sucker in place. You’re not hanging on it so much as leaning on it. Footwork anyone? Once I’d done that sort of thing a few times I quit feeling any guilt in terms of style (despite Laeger’s constant admonitions). Herb and I went on to do a fair number of routes together, and we divided our duties. If Herb thought a bolt could go in from a stance he’d do it. I, as he called me, was the hooker. 

I should mention, hooking was not used to make upward progress, just to remain in place (hopefully) while placing a bolt. The hardest I ever pushed the envelope hooking was to do a route to the right of Rubicon called Seizure. For one of those bolts I had to use opposed hooks, pulling towards each other from thin edges facing in opposite directions. Then, every time I reached back to swing the hammer the damned things popped. Finally I got a hole about a quarter inch deep. It was time for the old Jim Bridwell trick. I climbed up, casually hooked the hole, and drilled the one for the bolt right above it, close enough so the hanger would cover the “cheater” hole when all was said and done.

Setting the hook. Once the hook looks good, the aiders get clipped to it, and the climber steps into the aiders and gets down to business. Gold Standard, Courtright Reservoir. I think Jan took the pic. Him or Keesee. Anyway, the whole thing was Jan's fault. He found it.

The first part of your question? Maybe that red-haired Scot named Jan can take it from here…

 

Kristian, thank you for your generosity here. I never made it out to your Seizure yet... but I soon will. Thank you for taking the time to write this all out. 

There’s so much to look at here, so many routes and history to try to piece together.  Some I have direct experience with and it continues to baffle me.  There is a route on Echo Rock called Cherry Bomb (10c).  Turns out Bob Gaines put it up, apparently ground up. (I wasn't with Bob day I tried to climb it.)

I couldn’t get past the crux, on a top rope, with every kind of encouragement.  Not even close.  But I kept staring at this one bolt... as I recall the 3rd bolt at the top of a vertical slab mound which was the crux. I quit trying to climb because I was so blown away by HOW THE HELL did he put that there?  Impossible! I will have to watch this being done to believe it.  So you guys were animals.  Crazy.  

I have not yet set foot on Run For Your Life but that’s the plan and I’d love to get the play by play history if anyone remembers it.   On my list for next year, if I should gain that much ability, is EBGB’s.  Between now and then I understand I better learn to mantle.   But knowing the backstory is everything. Maybe I’m a bit of a groupie but I’m just in total awe.

——-

A word about fear of posting stories here and the comment about this thread being too “genteel “.  I’ll be interested in others take on this.  

Here are my feelings in brief: first, I’m right with ya’ll on the overbearing political correctness demanded everywhere. I’ve been accused of being a racist and misogynist right here on this thread and my feelings were Fuck it! I don’t need this!  And then you get lost in explaining yourself to people you don’t know. 

And apparently we cannot record the actual history of this place without altering the facts to make them more palatable.  Your recall of Joshua Tree history has to be cleaned up because it’s gonna offend someone.  

But currently... speaking only for myself... I’m here to learn, to gain information and to share what it is to be a climber over 50.  Most of us newer climbers are very tentative... easily deflated, so maybe there’s extra care just not to attack or be mean-spirited.  And I have no reason to come here to talk smack or degrade anyone.  It’s cowardly anyway from behind a keyboard, and it’s a waste of our time.  Hostility, insults, aggression are stupid in the context of learning to climb... I just avoid and/or walk away.  It’s not about being genteel... but it just lacks utility.

Time is short. Setbacks happen all the time on the rock. I’m just trying to use my time to listen, learn and get after some big goals and try to support others on the same journey.

Back in 1990 I teamed up with Jay Smith to do a new multi-pitch slab route in Yosemite on the North Apron of Middle Cathedral Rock. We named it Road to Ruin (5.12a). 

We pushed the ground-up ethic toward it's zenith. On the lead I'd prepare by casting off as light as possible, with zero rack- not even a spare carabiner, carrying just a hand drill (with a 1/4-inch drill bit), a bat hook (to go in the 1/4-inch hole) and a hammer. I'd trail an 8 mm haul line. 

When I got to the stance (usually way run out) I'd steady myself on one foot and drill a shallow hook hole as fast as I could, before my calf pumped out, punch the hook in with the hammer, hang on it, then haul up the bolt bag with all the hardware and drill a larger 5/16-inch bolt. That granite in Yosemite is hard as steel.

I think the most bolts I ever hand-drilled into Middle Cathedral Rock from stances in one day was 11. Quite the workout. Next day my calves were so ruined I could barely walk.

On that particular route, all the bolts have subsequently been replaced, with 3/8-inch stainless steel, on rappel of course.

Today, "ground-up" bolting from a stance is a lost art. The ground-up era ended in most areas by the mid 90's,  although Joshua Tree and Idyllwild were the trad strongholds that resisted the longest. 

I scored some BOOTY today on Hercules Finger!

Lori Milaswrote:

Not one of us here would ever intentionally insult or offend another human being (I believe).   

Lol... ok.  JT and Yosemite in the 80’s (and some would assert, right up to today) were locales blessed with a daily banter that would have made Don Rickles blush.

Lori. glad to see you back. I thought perhaps my road trip post was a bit insensitive to your situation and I felt terrible...  I just got carried away wishing I was on the road.   I do however think part of your frustration comes from climbing  exclusively in an area notorious for being both difficult to protect and climb..   it's always nice to hit an area where they coddle you. COR and red rocks come to mind. The Needles in SD have a serious reputation as well but if you lower your grade expectations they are amazingly fun and not so scary.   

 The garden takes a horrific beating when you road trip ;)   last time the weeds were chest height when we returned in august.. I still salvaged some tomatoes, zucchini and  basil.  never did find a bunch of plants . some came up the next spring...  

Getting to climb with a rope gun is amazeing! You will learn what is possible light years faster than if you are the  strongest member of you team. 

Old lady Hwrote:

Not something that's classic, but what is the opinion on stuff that seems to be bolted however, 20ish years or more ago? 

Rather a lot of my local stuff, if you peel trying to clip, or even just approaching the next bolt, you are pretty close to decking, or landing on a column that starts the climb. Here's one we were on yesterday. We both climbed up on the coffee table sized broken column that tall guy is standing next to. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/108178019/more-than-i-can-chew

Just curious, why are these routes this way, and, with aging hardware, is it reasonable to shift bolts?

Just a quick look at the route (and one I've never seen)...

40' route with 4 lead bolts?  Crux purportedly up high?  Seems reasonably bolted, IMHO.

Really hard to get the bolt spread right on especially short routes.  Especially down low, any reach down to haul up rope and clip will be risky for some folks on especially the first couple of lead bolts.

Rather than considering rebolting...maybe consider the risk on shorter sport climbs and modify your climbing accordingly.  Adapt to the spread.  Will be hard to get it right for everyone anyhow.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Lori. glad to see you back. I thought perhaps my road trip post was a bit insensitive to your situation and I felt terrible...  I just got carried away wishing I was on the road.   I do however think part of your frustration comes from climbing  exclusively in an area notorious for being both difficult to protect and climb..   it's always nice to hit an area where they coddle you. COR and red rocks come to mind. The Needles in SD have a serious reputation as well but if you lower your grade expectations they are amazingly fun and not so scary.   

 The garden takes a horrific beating when you road trip ;)   last time the weeds were chest height when we returned in august.. I still salvaged some tomatoes, zucchini and  basil.  never did find a bunch of plants . some came up the next spring...  

Getting to climb with a rope gun is amazeing! You will learn what is possible light years faster than if you are the  strongest member of you team. 

Nick. Thank you for that. No need to feel bad! I have been thinking about how often I write and isn’t it time to move over a bit?  I never meant to take up all the space in the room but it seems I have a new burning question each day.  

I do have a road trip coming up in July... perhaps most of the month. Tony is driving back to Chicago, I’m missing rivers and lakes and my family so I’m heading north. I plan to hike and climb in the Sierra and swim wherever there is water with maybe a side trip to some ocean.  In the past I always had a home to go back to. This time do I stay in an AirB&B or a hotel?  Or do I pack a tent and load my car up to the gills and learn to camp alone? Last time there were bears right outside our tent at 2 am and it kind of spooked me.  Can I handle myself parking alone and sleeping in my car?  A whole new thing to think about.

But until then I am really “training” ... kinda laughable to any real athlete. But there are a few routes I want to do before June and I’d like AT LEAST not to crap out on them because I’m unfit and too breathless to function.  So I’m focused on the here and now —pretending I’m a female Rocky Balboa getting ready for the big fight.  Power hike this morning up Ryan’s Mountain again with the Whoop —which so far I’m loving, and more attention to my diabetes. My hands are full right now... happily so.  

Keep posting your pictures and great stories! Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions.    

Lori Milaswrote:

There’s so much to look at here, so many routes and history to try to piece together.  Some I have direct experience with and it continues to baffle me.  There is a route on Echo Rock called Cherry Bomb (10c).  Turns out Bob Gaines put it up, apparently ground up. (I wasn't with Bob day I tried to climb it.)

I couldn’t get past the crux, on a top rope, with every kind of encouragement.  Not even close.  But I kept staring at this one bolt... as I recall the 3rd bolt at the top of a vertical slab mound which was the crux. I quit trying to climb because I was so blown away by HOW THE HELL did he put that there?  Impossible! I will have to watch this being done to believe it.  So you guys were animals.  Crazy.  

That damn Cherry Bomb rig is hard. Bob picked a good one there. That was one of my go-to routes when I was climbing with someone I wanted to get even with. Another good revenge climb was Electric Blue, also one of Bob's routes. When you think you've done the crux you get to this slab.  Then there's that Battle of The Bulge, over left of Cherry Bomb. That's another good one when there's a score to settle. And I think it's another one of Bob's routes? What does it mean when one climber put up all of your "revenge" routes?   

I had so much fun getting out on some easy Eldo classics with a good friend this morning. It felt good to place gear. Happy Easter (if you celebrate) everyone!