New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #15

"Suicide by Cop"

I guess sometimes people just snap, and we may never know why.

I had an email chat going on with him for a while. It started maybe on his FB page, but we moved it to email. He struck me as a really good guy, compassionate, saying the kinds of positive things we'd all like to hear from more people.

I know this is way off topic for the general flavor of this thread, but since it's here...

The "BB Gun" was a nearly perfect replica of a Beretta 92 (you can see a pic of in it the video). That's a very popular and recognizable pistol. The cops didn't just see a gun, they recognized it.

Tragic for everyone involved. Sadly, in things like this, that's a lot of people.

When I see things like this, things that reveal bitter truths about what it can mean to be human, I'm thankful that I discovered climbing when I did. I was not heading down a good road. Everything was all nice and shiny on the outside, career and all, but it was doomed to failure, a train wreck waiting to happen. When climbing came along and derailed that whole train it was the best thing that could have happened.

Enough. A climbing story...

For those not familiar with the Needles, after a hike of about a mile and a half, the trail winds its way out through the formations. Along the way it goes through the “Main Notch.” This is the center of activity there. People hang out there, cache gear there, and head to their climbs from there.

I was there with a couple friends, when Paul Andersen and his brother came down the descent route from the Witch, having just done Inner Sanctum, a classic four pitch 5.9. Paul’s brother wasn’t an experienced climber and failed to clean a red camalot somewhere along the way. Paul busted down the gulley to solo the route and collect his gear, but it was gone.

When Paul got back to the notch, somewhat perplexed, I pointed out to him that a pair of French climbers did the route after he and his brother had. In fact, lo and behold, they were standing right over there. Paul approached them and asked if they had his cam. All of a sudden the two guys, who had been speaking perfect English a few minutes before, could only seem to communicate in French.

Paul is a six foot Irishman with about a plus 5 ape index. Not a man to be trifled with. Watching him circling the two very fragile looking Frenchmen, examining their gear, was entertaining. But the cam was not to be found.

Then, in an act of pure genius, Paul reached into one of the guy’s chalkbags and produced the cam.

Later I asked how he knew which one had it. He said he picked the guy that was closer to pissing himself.

Kristian Solemwrote:

Enough. A climbing story...

For those not familiar with the Needles, after a hike of about a mile and a half, the trail winds its way out through the formations. Along the way it goes through the “Main Notch.” This is the center of activity there. People hang out there, cache gear there, and head to their climbs from there.

I was there with a couple friends, when Paul Andersen and his brother came down the descent route from the Witch, having just done Inner Sanctum, a classic four pitch 5.9. Paul’s brother wasn’t an experienced climber and failed to clean a red camalot somewhere along the way. Paul busted down the gulley to solo the route and collect his gear, but it was gone.

When Paul got back to the notch, somewhat perplexed, I pointed out to him that a pair of French climbers did the route after he and his brother had. In fact, lo and behold, they were standing right over there. Paul approached them and asked if they had his cam. All of a sudden the two guys, who had been speaking perfect English a few minutes before, could only seem to communicate in French.

Paul is a six foot Irishman with about a plus 5 ape index. Not a man to be trifled with. Watching him circling the two very fragile looking Frenchmen, examining their gear, was entertaining. But the cam was not to be found.

Then, in an act of pure genius, Paul reached into one of the guy’s chalkbags and produced the cam.

Later I asked how he knew which one had it. He said he picked the guy that was closer to pissing himself.

I'm sure this was a great story bitd, but do you still feel it's ok to use the threat of physical violence against two very fragile looking climbers, both a long way from home, outnumbered, in the backwoods of a strange country, a long ways from home? 

To retrieve a cam that they had legitimately bootied?

Sadly YES, all they had to do is tell the truth. You are not going to find a nicer guy than Paul. 

In the modern world when you take something that is not yours we call that stealing. 

Mark E Dixonwrote:

I'm sure this was a great story bitd, but do you still feel it's ok to use the threat of physical violence against two very fragile looking climbers, both a long way from home, outnumbered, in the backwoods of a strange country, a long ways from home? 

To retrieve a cam that they had legitimately bootied?

First, bootying cams is no longer cool. Finding and keeping gear is a whole new deal given the cost. We see people posting "Camalot found at base of Double Cross" and so forth all of the time. Climbers often make an effort to get costly gear back to it's owners. And for the French guys to refuse to cough up the cam when asked? They actually hid the thing? Hmm.

To you're other point, the entire incident was funny. The gear thieves were French and fragile. Paul is a knuckle dragger. No one was gonna get hurt. I think that it was fairly obvious that we're not a pugilistic bunch. 

Or maybe you want to cancel pretty much anything that Don Whillans ever wrote? OMG, have you read any of what he had to say about climbers of various other nationalities than his beloved Britain?  Or Mark Twight? He's not exactly reverent of Euro's in general.

Yes, you'll make the argument that their tales were BITD too. A point. But if you read their stuff it's funny as shit. But if someone tells those stories today? And stuff comes down all the time today that's funny as shit, but we can't tell those stories? The loss is ours.

Earlier on this thread I was telling some tales about Dave Mayville and Hidetaka Suzuki. I skipped the very best ones because, while funny at the time, they would have triggered a lot of people today. I mean a lot. I've held back on a ton of irreverent, albeit hysterical material, for just the sort of reasons you raise. To be frank, I don't like doing it, but I'm not going to stick my neck in that noose. And I don't think this story rises to that level. I know aspiring young comics, comedy writers, and performance artists who struggle with their careers out of fear of being taken to task for doing any material that might offend someone. By your standard Chris Rock ought to be muzzled.

Lastly, Paul's remark about who was going to piss himself first was a joke. Not exactly a hard one to recognize either. How, after all, could he possibly have known such a thing?

Kristian Solemwrote:

I guess sometimes people just snap, and we may never know why.

I had an email chat going on with him for a while. It started maybe on his FB page, but we moved it to email. He struck me as a really good guy, compassionate, saying the kinds of positive things we'd all like to hear from more people.

I had a very good friend. Prolific filmmaker, creative genius, wonderful, gentle soul. He helped me and many other people at various times in our 20+ year friendship. He also, during some times, suffered from voices in his head. Basically, schizo-affective disorder. Two years ago, almost to the day, he threw himself off a bridge onto Highway 101 in front of a speeding car. We never really know what is going on for people. In his case, I knew, somewhat, what was going on but was helpless to do much. Mental illness is a bitch. 

Andrew Ricewrote:

I had a very good friend. Prolific filmmaker, creative genius, wonderful, gentle soul. He helped me and many other people at various times in our 20+ year friendship. He also, during some times, suffered from voices in his head. Basically, schizo-affective disorder. Two years ago, almost to the day, he threw himself off a bridge onto Highway 101 in front of a speeding car. We never really know what is going on for people. In his case, I knew, somewhat, what was going on but was helpless to do much. Mental illness is a bitch. 

Sad and tragic. I'm sorry for your loss. A cliché, but true.

Two good friends of mine made the decision over the last few years. It can shake you to your core. 

I've had some time to think about Mark Dixon's post. I'll say that my description of the French climbers as "fragile looking" was questionable. If I used it around a campfire, with its accompanied animation etc., I think it would fly and disturb no one. In text, maybe not so much. But that's all you'll get me to concede...   

Kristian. We had a joke book in the restaurant in the 80's called 101 tasteless jokes. It was hillarious at the time but completely unacceptable now.  part of that is the SJW culture but also a big part of it is our own awareness that certain  racial, mental illness and gender based jokes come at the cost of hurting real people.   

I doubt that the change in booty mentality has anything to do with the cost of gear. Gear was just as expensive BINTD as it is now when you factor in what our hourly wages were then.  I think the big change is the internet. now we know exactly who's gear it is so keeping it is a more overrt act of aggression.  BINTD we usually didn't know the back story. we just knew there was something shiny up there that was ours if we were brave enough to solo up and get it. No there is a human face and story behind that shiny trinket. Additionaly most of us old farts  have so much gear acumulated that its a lot easier to return it than it would be if we were young, broke and just trying to accumulate our first rack..  Meanwhile the new generation is coming into the sport at a time when its considered normal to post on social media exactly where and when you lost that  trinket and beg for its return.  there is no shame in t begging now though it would have been considered bad form when I was a kid.  Its also normal to post when and where you found the trinket to try to find the folks who lost it.. I will say the last time  I did that I was not impressed with the attitude of the person whoms ice ax I found and returned.  I would have expected a thank you. 

Kristian, I have SO many thoughts and responses on this subject that I can't even begin write them. Not one of us here would ever intentionally insult or offend another human being (I believe).  I hope  you will share your stories, as best you can.  

I hope the stories keep coming.  ALL of them. 

Some of the stories I'm particularly interested in are about the mindset and thought process you early climbers had in deciding what routes to set--what to climb, how to protect them.  I know I'm part of the current era where climbing has been sanitized... made suitable for the masses.  Yesterday I kept staring at the Wall in Hidden Valley and wondering why the most beautiful line there (just to the left of the long chimney/crack) had never been bolted.  Houser and gang did Chalk Up Another One... and then to the far left Good To The Last Drop.  Why not that best middle line?  

-------------------

Meanwhile, I came home yesterday with a surprising amount of self-doubt.  I wish I had some roadmap to compare my own journey to.  Is it normal to still feel like a klutz and so uncoordinated?  Maybe I should stay on the ground and take up watching.  I suspect I have no natural ability... I don't know.  It's been 3 years, climbing a lot more lately.  I think the places I struggle have easy answers for someone more intuitive, and more strength would be a plus.    

Earlier this week we were at Cathouse.  One of the routes had a boulder start, and I could not make it.  Watching Bob palm down and easy on over that first edge looked so relaxed and efficient. My mantle did not.    I'm guessing most teenage boys wouldn't even need coaching on this... they'd just do it.  There was a little dihedral towards the top, requiring a layback.  For me that was a very difficult, scary journey.  On laybacks I always feel as though I might shoot right off into space. 

Yesterday I got the full understanding of how advantageous it is to be able to remember sequences.   The Flue just has a tricky start... not a lot of opportunity to rest.  It helps to remember exactly the order of moves, EXACTLY where that hidden left pocket is, and to work out getting around a block and into the crack.  Shouldn't reading this route by now be just natural and easy?  (I really don't know.)  

There was a moment towards the top of that route, moving along a crack, where I was ready to topple.  On each of four laps I tried to figure out how to get through it without peeling off... I finally moved my left knee over just a tiny bit and then the whole thing flowed.  It rebalanced my body so I could stay upright in the crack.    

I just feel like by now a 5.8 should be a walk in the park.  

In business I always had the motto "Set expectations" and maybe mine are set a little too high?  Climbing sure requires patience.  There are some surprisingly bad days.  And there are some shockingly good ones.  Climbing takes everything out of me, but gives back so much. But sometimes I feel like my grandmother could do a better job. 

A thought on 'roadtrip'.      Gosh, they are wonderful.  

Joshua Tree IS my roadtrip.  It is one long and protracted road trip for me where every day is a big adventure.  It has also turned out to be the place where I can work out some of my own issues... think about my work, my family, and certainly my health.  

Since arriving here I have had little desire to travel.  Dallas talked about there being two types of people... nomads and castle builders.  I always thought I was a nomad, forced to put down roots for my family and business.  But no sooner did we arrive here than I started building the castle.  I lived in Rocklin 30+ years and never knew my neighbors.  It's been a pleasure to get to know both the climbers in this area, but also the regular folks in our neighborhood.  Already I have 4 barrels with lettuce and onions and a black tomato plant growing... the potatoes have emerged.  A fence is going up. 

This morning I'll be hiking out to a place by the Great Burrito wall where I saw some hidden Mohave Mound Cactus about to bloom.  If they have bloomed, I'll take pictures.  

When I lived in No. Cal I spent days and months at the same spots on the American River, or at Folsom Lake.  I watched those beloved places cycle through the seasons, watched the waterlines rise and fall... noted the days when I spotted an otter playing in the river... a bluegill in Folsom Lake nibbling at my toes.  I didn't want to miss one day of the action.  There were summers at Folsom Lake when I was the  only person there, sitting on the shoreline, watching the trees submerge and then re-emerge... seeing the sun angles change, the days shorten as fall approached.  I wanted to note it all.  

So it begins here.    

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Kristian. We had a joke book in the restaurant in the 80's called 101 tasteless jokes. It was hillarious at the time but completely unacceptable now.  part of that is the SJW culture but also a big part of it is our own awareness that certain  racial, mental illness and gender based jokes come at the cost of hurting real people.   

I doubt that the change in booty mentality has anything to do with the cost of gear. Gear was just as expensive BINTD as it is now when you factor in what our hourly wages were then.  I think the big change is the internet. now we know exactly who's gear it is so keeping it is a more overrt act of aggression.  BINTD we usually didn't know the back story. we just knew there was something shiny up there that was ours if we were brave enough to solo up and get it. No there is a human face and story behind that shiny trinket. Additionaly most of us old farts  have so much gear acumulated that its a lot easier to return it than it would be if we were young, broke and just trying to accumulate our first rack..  Meanwhile the new generation is coming into the sport at a time when its considered normal to post on social media exactly where and when you lost that  trinket and beg for its return.  there is no shame in t begging now though it would have been considered bad form when I was a kid.  Its also normal to post when and where you found the trinket to try to find the folks who lost it.. I will say the last time  I did that I was not impressed with the attitude of the person whoms ice ax I found and returned.  I would have expected a thank you. 

I came across a bail anchor at Red Rock.  .75 Camalot, large stopper, three 'biners, new cordalette.  I posted this on MP, was contacted by a person from SLC who had the right details.  I mailed the booty to him and requested that he send me a check for the postage, about $6.  Never heard from him again.

Lori Milaswrote:

A thought on 'roadtrip'.      Gosh, they are wonderful.  

Joshua Tree IS my roadtrip.  It is one long and protracted road trip for me where every day is a big adventure.  It has also turned out to be the place where I can work out some of my own issues... think about my work, my family, and certainly my health.  

Since arriving here I have had little desire to travel.  Dallas talked about there being two types of people... nomads and castle builders.  I always thought I was a nomad, forced to put down roots for my family and business.  But no sooner did we arrive here than I started building the castle.  I lived in Rocklin 30+ years and never knew my neighbors.  It's been a pleasure to get to know both the climbers in this area, but also the regular folks in our neighborhood.  Already I have 4 barrels with lettuce and onions and a black tomato plant growing... the potatoes have emerged.  A fence is going up. 

This morning I'll be hiking out to a place by the Great Burrito wall where I saw some hidden Mohave Mound Cactus about to bloom.  If they have bloomed, I'll take pictures.  

When I lived in No. Cal I spent days and months at the same spots on the American River, or at Folsom Lake.  I watched those beloved places cycle through the seasons, watched the waterlines rise and fall... noted the days when I spotted an otter playing in the river... a bluegill in Folsom Lake nibbling at my toes.  I didn't want to miss one day of the action.  There were summers at Folsom Lake when I was the  only person there, sitting on the shoreline, watching the trees submerge and then re-emerge... seeing the sun angles change, the days shorten as fall approached.  I wanted to note it all.  

So it begins here.    

Nope, JTree can't be your road trip.  Road trips are about climbing new places on different type rock, meeting new climbers and more.  A couple of years ago Keith and I did a 2,000km road trip (thanks to the ACC for financial support) to 8 smaller climbing venues in Mexico that are off the radar for international climbers.  The best part was all the great people we met.  

Idaho Bobwrote:

I came across a bail anchor at Red Rock.  .75 Camalot, large stopper, three 'biners, new cordalette.  I posted this on MP, was contacted by a person from SLC who had the right details.  I mailed the booty to him and requested that he send me a check for the postage, about $6.  Never heard from him again.

Wow - that’s ridiculous. Maybe should have asked for postage $ before sending? Plus the hassle you went through to package and ship - that’s terrible behavior.

I’ve had different experiences - every time I’ve returned gear the owners have been very appreciative. Usually it’s been gear left due to accidents though, so probably creates a different attitude than inability to clean a cam. Sounds like yours was a bail anchor though - they should have at least covered shipping!!

Kristian- I enjoy a good Whillans anecdote as much as the next old white male, but wouldn't recount most of them on the internet any more :-)

I tend not to post on this thread. I have kind of a thick skin, enjoy a boisterous argument and try not to take it personally, so I always worry that I'll disturb the genteel atmosphere and break a bunch of china before I'm escorted out. Maybe we should move this debate to one of the ruder corners of MP?

Back in the remote past, when I trad climbed, if you left a piece of stuck gear, it belonged to the whoever got it out. Your loss was their gain.

So I read your story as celebrating Paul for using physical threats to regain a cam that was no longer his.

On reflection, I'm not so sure.

Was the cam really abandoned? That Paul soloed up to retrieve it argues against that. 

I guess it could go either way.

Here I differ with Mark Frumkin. IMHO keeping abandoned gear is not theft.

Otoh, keeping gear that the owner intends to return for is theft. Project draws, stashed gear, etc. 

Anyway, I loved the punchline of your story- cam hidden in the chalk bag. 

Will have to remember this trick to use on my friends ;-)

Abandoned gear is one thing, but gear you have not had a chance to get back to is another. 

Taking something you did not buy or make & is not yours is stealing. I know this is hard for some people but it is what it is. 

The second time I lead a climb was at Suicide & at the very top I put in a #6 stopper in as part of my belaying setup. My second fell & we could get the stopper out, so I ran down to my truck got a hammer & screwdriver & headed up to get it. John Oliver walks past me swinging MY #6 stopper & he says to me you left it you lost it. I said theft is theft, a few days later he apologized and gave me my property. 

Idaho Bobwrote:

I came across a bail anchor at Red Rock.  .75 Camalot, large stopper, three 'biners, new cordalette.  I posted this on MP, was contacted by a person from SLC who had the right details.  I mailed the booty to him and requested that he send me a check for the postage, about $6.  Never heard from him again.

I think people mean well, but sometimes it just doesn't happen.

Things have changed from BITD, or even not so ancient history.

Yes, getting postage and a thank you to you is the right thing, no argument there. But here's how it can disconnect...

First, whatever the online exchange was, that usually is the end of that. People are used to making a minimal exchange and rarely do more.

Second? A check. They then have to come up with a paper bit of money, something to mail it in, and postage. That isn't done much (or at all, honestly) by a lot of people, these days. 

So, it becomes a project. You mean to get it done, but it doesn't happen. Then you feel bad, but embarassed. After awhile, you just ignore it. 

I've recently been in charge of a whole bunch of packages and information exchanged back and forth, to help my friend Fritz. I kept paper notes, and got back to everyone at every stage, right away. But have I sent snail mail to all those people? No....but I still might. Dunno. They all have been thanked profusely though, and there have been some nice conversations too.

It's a different circumstance from returning gear, but it was never planned to send postage to everyone. That's hundreds of dollars extra, by now, and the whole deal was originally a "no strings attached" thing, to work at all. People were very, very generous! Some did a little, some did a lot, but it all mattered equally, because the kindness and caring was the real gift. 

Fritz is very grateful. But? My decision to channel all of this through me? That meant he was released from specific thank you's. That's hard, when things are tough and money is extremely tight. 

Yes.

There are times when just a piece of paper, an envelope, and a stamp are....too much.

Thank god most of us likely won't face that. 

But I bet many of us have been close, at some time in our (now) long lives?

In other ramblings....

It was almost 78 yesterday! Partner and I got out to climb yesterday. 

Farmers market starts today, but still a drive through pickup. Yay, anyway.

Potatoes....not yet planted, nothing is, but I picked up a spring planting "kit" from one of my local farmers, so I need to get on it.

Oh yeah...

The lawn needs mowing. Fuck that, eh?

Time to find some pants and go get my pickup at the market. Wahoo! Baked goods!

Num num num num num num num

Best, Helen

Why is it I have been climbing for 45 years without any significant injury, yet I have managed to hurt my back vacuuming, give myself a black eye painting, and most recently, hurt my knee cleaning the oven ?  Who knew housework was so dangerous ?

Gonna try climbing tomorrow anyway.  Hoping Easter Sunday will keep the normal weekend crowds down bit.  I find I need to climb some on weekends so I can socialize with my non-retired partners.

T

ErikaNWwrote:

Wow - that’s ridiculous. Maybe should have asked for postage $ before sending? Plus the hassle you went through to package and ship - that’s terrible behavior.

I’ve had different experiences - every time I’ve returned gear the owners have been very appreciative. Usually it’s been gear left due to accidents though, so probably creates a different attitude than inability to clean a cam. Sounds like yours was a bail anchor though - they should have at least covered shipping!!

It's the 21st century.  We have your cam. Venmo or Apple Pay the postage, or you'll never see it again.  Don't want to risk being scammed?  Well then, the gear you lost through your or your second's carelessness, inattention, lack of skill, or emergency action stays lost.

For most of my climbing career booty was booty.  Once you left it, you never expected to see it again, but that was before a piece cost $70 so there's that...  The contemporary perspective seems to be entirely focused on loss.  But I used to see the whole situation as a kind of circulation: you lost some gear that went to someone else, they lost some gear that went to you.

Nowadays, I always try to give found gear back.  But jeez, the owner has to make at least some attempt to actually help with the return before I put myself out.