New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #14

While we're talking training.  I haven't really climbed much during covid times.  So I took up hangboarding.  Made good progress - enough so that when I did get to climb, I was able to do a route or two at decent grade (for me) in good form.  Then life got in the way (holidays and an unplanned move) and I had to stop for six weeks due to time constraints.  Just started up again a few weeks ago.  I was back at square one.  

A bit demoralizing, and I made the mistake of pushing myself a bit too hard.  Turns out at 50, that's not a good idea.  I seem to have strained my forearm on one arm, and have taken the last week and a half off, waiting for the damn thing to feel better (it still hurts a little, even just typing) so I can go back to square one again.

GO

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Rgold what you describe as a lat pull down was never what I knew as a lat pull down. It never included the pushing motion, not that that's not a great exercise. 

Carl, you're right, and for whatever it is worth, I went back and edited my comment to say "extended lat pulldown." I think the pressing part of the motion is every bit as relevant to climbing as the pulling part.

Lori Milaswrote:

 While watching the Super Bowl Tony said "Lori, the worst wide receiver would be a better climber than most climbers out there."  He has modified it a bit, says it wasn't quite that harsh.  But he did say "Go ahead, run it by 'your people'. If they know football they'll agree."  So... 

Ignorance must be bliss.

Top athletes in most sports are still talented and top athletes. 

But, the skill set to be at the top of a sport such as climbing vs. football are not really comparable.  

Making a transition from running fast and catching a ball, to climbing at a professional level would not be an easy task, and likely impossible.

But, a fairer comparison to "most climbers out there" -- who mostly climb recreationally -- would be to most people who play football (including the out ot shape guys who play flag football every third Saturday).  In such a "head to head" competition, I would place my money on the climbers.

Wide receivers would probably transition well to slalom skiing. Gymnasts and dancers seem to move easily into climbing.

Randywrote:

Ignorance must be bliss.

Top athletes in most sports are still talented and top athletes. 

But, the skill set to be at the top of a sport such as climbing vs. football are not really comparable.  

Making a transition from running fast and catching a ball, to climbing at a professional level would not be an easy task, and likely impossible.

But, a fairer comparison to "most climbers out there" -- who mostly climb recreationally -- would be to most people who play football (including the out ot shape guys who play flag football every third Saturday).  In such a "head to head" competition, I would place my money on the climbers.

Remember when Michael Jordon tried baseball after he retired?  As incredibly talented as he was on the court, it didn't translate to the diamond, at least at the level he was trying for.  Each sport has it's special "needs", such as vision if you want to hit a fastball well.

https://youtu.be/qqIH9ez7d9A

I keep watching this. Dancers and gymnasts, as others have said, but, skaters and dancers would have what gymnasts do, plus perhaps longer arms and legs. Long limbs aren't a plus in tumbling, but they are in spins. 

Brandt Allenwrote:

Phyl and I went out and humbled ourselves on the Mel Cracks today. I got a picture of a magnificent Juniper tree nearby.

You can see Phyl in the upper right corner of the pic.

Au contraire, mon ami!  I propose it was the Mel Cracks themselves who were humbled after experiencing their 1,258,503rd toprope ascent by none other than two Experienced Climbers Over 50.  I certainly flailed on the bottom of the Right Mel Crack (the left hand one), but Brandt silently and gracefully danced up it.  But then I did somewhat redeem myself by not falling on the Left Mel Crack (the right hand one) - despite being quite handicapped by 2 lbs of jelly-belly Covid fat on top of 4 lbs of quality dense "Over 50" fat.  So all in all, pour moi, a satisfactory expedition to Mel's Diner.  I came away thinking, "Yes, perhaps I do have what it takes to lead Joshua Tree 5.7".

Brandt, thanks for the great photo!  I'm typically not that photogenic, but you managed to capture a quite flattering one of me.  

I had a wonderful day out today on Playhouse Rock and I would challenge any of Tony’s Wide Receivers to come join me.  I’m feeling very macho after today.  

We climbed a variation of a 5.7+ route that had to be in the 5.10 range, with moves I’ve seldom done—I had no idea what to do with it until I got there. It was all experimental for me. A basically smooth scooped out vertical face with exactly two holds and a few edges... it was stemming and palming, stemming and palming and occasionally bridging. At a few places I recalled that gym route I posted recently where I didn’t realize the solution had to be to place both feet on one wall and both hands on the other. This felt very close to that.
I never know whether a hunch will work. Climbing for me is SO learning by trial and error and making micro adjustments along the way and then hopefully remembering it next time. Re earlier discussions here, mastering this route would not help with mastering the next route.  They are all so different. 

I hope to go back soon when my arms are fresh and see if I can work it out.

Hips will be sore tomorrow.  

phylp phylpwrote:

Au contraire, mon ami!  I propose it was the Mel Cracks themselves who were humbled after experiencing their 1,258,503rd toprope ascent by none other than two Experienced Climbers Over 50.  I certainly flailed on the bottom of the Right Mel Crack (the left hand one), but Brandt silently and gracefully danced up it.  But then I did somewhat redeem myself by not falling on the Left Mel Crack (the right hand one) - despite being quite handicapped by 2 lbs of jelly-belly Covid fat on top of 4 lbs of quality dense "Over 50" fat.  So all in all, pour moi, a satisfactory expedition to Mel's Diner.  I came away thinking, "Yes, perhaps I do have what it takes to lead Joshua Tree 5.7".

Brandt, thanks for the great photo!  I'm typically not that photogenic, but you managed to capture a quite flattering one of me.  

More, more!  Brandt is indeed a wonderful and gifted climber and obviously you must be, too. Hope you guys get out some more and post more pictures and share more stories!!! 

Lori Milaswrote:

This is a good discussion about strength training and fitness.  I'm feeling discouraged, maybe by unrealistic expectations.  After sitting in a hotel room for 2 weeks, I came back ready to step up some cardio.  We have a trail here, (Ryan's Trail) that is 3 mile round trip, with about 1000 foot rise. On the way up it's mostly set stones, a foot or so at a time--this is the first time i've used walking sticks just to see if they help (they do).  For me, it's a real challenge to make it even part way up that mountain... I've pushed a little further each day to see if I can go just another fifty yards before turning around.  But I make frequent stops to catch my breath.  And while I'm doing that, runners breeze on by.  

Senor comes to mind as someone who has good endurance and fitness, with riding his bike so much, running stairs.  I've never touched anything close to that.  

So I'm wondering if it gets easier, gets better...   

There are places I'd like to go where apparently some endurance and fitness are the main issues. (like Tahquitz or even walking out to the Astro Dome).  There are some routes I'd like to climb that are starting to look like, once again, endurance/stamina is the issue more than particular strength.  I have the strength to make most of those moves, but not endlessly.  In fact, I tuckered out at the last third of Double Cross, which wasn't the crux--I was just plain fatigued.   

So, I wonder if cardio and stamina has a hard limit, or one that can be increased over time.  

And then there are those heartrate charts that seem to decrease with age... "Maximum heartrate" based upon age.  Which leaves me to wonder if we are supposed to have a beating heart at all.    

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A piece of good news (for me) is that there is a new piece of technology for us Type 1 Diabetics that is a real game-changer, and I have had it for the last month.  It's an insulin pump and glucose reader (you might have seen it in a Super Bowl ad for Dexcom).  While it by no means takes away all the grief of diabetes, it allows for much better management.  I was able to hike those trails this week without a single low blood sugar. A good range is 80-120 glucose for humans.  When I made my last step off that trail I was at exactly 100.  No gulping 7-Ups along the way.  No near emergencies when I'm too far from my car to get help.  It would be nice that this one thing is easier, as I try to climb harder this year.    

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Ok, lastly... I told him to take it back but he won't.     While watching the Super Bowl Tony said "Lori, the worst wide receiver would be a better climber than most climbers out there."  He has modified it a bit, says it wasn't quite that harsh.  But he did say "Go ahead, run it by 'your people'. If they know football they'll agree."  So... 

Hi Lori,

It certainly does get easier, as least, for me, it used to. When I joined the army (I was 23) I was strong but not fit. I remember the first time we did a BFT (basic Fitness test) and had to do what were called ‘heaves’.  A ‘heave’ is basically a pull up or chin up. This used to be done on a ‘heaving beam’ which was a plank of wood suspended on a stand so that it was vertical. It was maybe six feet long, an inch and a bit thick and maybe 9 inches wide. Hands would grip the top edge and you had to pull up so your chin touched (went over top of) the top of the beam. There was to be no ‘flicking’ or swinging. The heave had to start from dead straight arms; all the way up, all the way down. Max points was 20 heaves. Some recruits could do 10, some 15, a couple did none, or 1 or 2, a few did 18, I did 19. But I was shit at running, always the guy struggling to keep up. I honestly felt like I was going to have a heart attack sometimes. But I learnt how to try and I learnt how to push through. I ended up getting what I feel was VERY fit. I loved going for runs, mainly cross country. I never went for really long runs, mainly 5 to 8 Ks.  The fastest I ever did for a 5k run was 20 minutes and 59 seconds. So yes, if you keep at it, it gets easier. However, after being very fit (especially as a recruit instructor for two years) I tore my ACL in my right knee and a medial ligament in my left. Basically, my knees were fucked, mainly due to all that work in the army. I haven’t been able to run since 1995.  When I go to The Grampians for my month long trips (normally all of April) I get very fit walking to the top of Hollow Mountain and other areas. BUT, my knees swell up terribly, and I can literally hear grating noises from them as I walk.  

I think if your knees are sound, and if you manage your other issues well (I have no idea about diabetes really) then you should still be able to increase your fitness with work.   

It all depends on the athlete. some folks are naturals. I would suspect most gymnasts would have a serious advantage. We took a Russian Mtn bike Olympian climbing once . he absolutely had to win. there was No  loseing or giveing up in his DNA. He made it up everything we did that day> i suspect we could have skunked him on something really techy but if you gave him a week or so he would likely  get the damn thing.... 

Re. Tony's comment about the worst wide receiver. Saying that the "worst" of the best (professional NFL players) would be good at some other sport is kind of king of the obvious award winning (and please show this to Tony.)

Back in my college days I had a neighbor who was a US ski team downhiller. He asked my roommates and I if we'd be willing to teach him, a kid from Idaho, how to surf. Of course we did. It took him about 3 days to be better than a bunch of us lifelong surfers. It was amazing. But outliers are going to outlie. Nothing to be shocked about there. He later went on to ski (but not place) in the Albertville Winter Olympics in 92 and to win a bunch of X-games in ski cross. Oh, and to be featured in a bunch of Warren Miller films. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

It all depends on the athlete. some folks are naturals. I would suspect most gymnasts would have a serious advantage. We took a Russian Mtn bike Olympian climbing once . he absolutely had to win. there was No  loseing or giveing up in his DNA. He made it up everything we did that day> i suspect we could have skunked him on something really techy but if you gave him a week or so he would likely  get the damn thing.... 

Back in my ski instructor days, one day I had a private lesson with a "never ever",  a fit looking guy about 30.  As a never ever (someone who has never been on skis before) I told him we'd go to the learning area.  No, he said, " I want to go to the top of the mountain".  So we took the main chair to the top of Stratton Mountain in Vermont.  His balance was excellent.  I demonstrated a basic turn, he followed flawlessly.  I demonstrated what we called back then a parallel turn, he followed with good form.  I was amazed.  I asked him what up?  He said " I'm on the New York Rangers".  "This edging to turn is quite similar to skating".  By the end of the day he was going down advanced runs in control, good form, decent speed.  I suspect he would also have done OK climbing.

Skiing and surfing seem to be common amongst climbers. Engaging stuff that doesn't compete, lol!

I'm built for gymnastics, for sure, and did that for a bit in high school. I'm pretty sure we have a couple other gymnasts in this forum, and a competitive bike racer who's still an athlete, imo.

So? Being dinky has plusses and minuses, but, for sure, if I can get leaner and more muscular, I'll have a strength to weight ratio advantage over some others. 

My guess is that people built for basketball are probably the least optimal body for climbing, especially if they are also burly. Ice, or alpine, though? A whole other thing!

I did a 23 and me thing not too long ago. According to that, I have a genetic advantage for explosive power, over endurance. Sprints versus marathons, is how they put it. So, see, that means I'm born to be a boulderer, eh? We can ignore the fine print that it would only matter at the elite level, right???

Helen

EDIT to add: Hey! Excellent new tech, Lori, yay!!

One thing--if you are using something like Therabands, be sure to buy the NON LATEX!  It lasts lots longer than the latex variety.

I think you all have been smoking something... or Tony got ahold of you and paid you money to take his side.  

Let’s get real. I could see the crossover between almost any two sports but THIS sport is so complex, requiring such specialized movement, decision-making and technique, I don’t think a wide-receiver could climb (just because he’s a wide-receiver.)

I had that thought today while climbing—figuring out today’s route wasn’t about only strength or only endurance but about some complicated footwork and balance on a fairly blank wall.

Put our fictitious wide receiver on Double Cross and see how that works out.  Put him on EBGB’s and see how it goes.  

Tony paid you, didn’t he?  
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Carl, thanks for the perspective on cardio fitness and the reminder about knees.  I think strength comes easier to me than speed/endurance.  Sounds like that’s the case with you and Helen, too.  But I will keep at it. 

Yesterday I had a PT session with a female therapist who treats and trains climbers.  I don’t know if you watched the video I posted a week ago by her (Esther Smith) but I was so interested to see her work with knees on a professional runner.  I think it changed the way I am approaching my hike—especially her attention to loose hips.  I’m lucky that I started this climbing journey with no injuries and no bum body parts. I’m hoping these ladies will help me stay that way. 

You are overthinking it. 12 yr old kids climb 14s these days... 

We all think our particular sport is special. Ha ha! Try asking a Nordic skier, rower and cyclist to debate which sport requires the most aerobic capacity, endurance, ability to suffer, etc... I think it is only at the more advanced levels of any sport where the genetics (body type, muscle composition, O2 transport, etc) really start to come into play as a truly limiting factor. Very few people probably bump up against their genetically pre-determined hard limit.

I'm guessing most pro-level wide-receivers who turn their attention to climbing could probably manage up to 5.11 pretty quickly and get into 5.12 with some dedicated effort (not taking into account head game with leading). But I know less than nothing about football. I have seen really accomplished athletes from other sports easily climb 5.10 their first time on rock - they have strength, balance, flexibility and most of all great body awareness.

Really, does it matter? Not an argument I'd get caught up in since it's all completely hypothetical. Unless..... anyone want to kidnap some NFL wide receivers and put them into a controlled experiment?

Erika

You should say futbol players.  They're really athletes.  Running for 90 minutes, not 10 seconds and then a two minute break.

Lori Milaswrote:

Let’s get real. I could see the crossover between almost any two sports but THIS sport is so complex, requiring such specialized movement, decision-making and technique, I don’t think a wide-receiver could climb (just because he’s a wide-receiver.)

I agree. The complexity is not in the movement as much as in the technical skills, although there's counter-intuitive things like flagging, knee drops etc that one needs to learn. But the skills are very much niche skills, and so are the required strengths.  

I recall a while ago I was at a local bouldering gym that had just opened. We still only have three in little old Adelaide, one very much a 'underground dive' type place (The Adelaide Bouldering Club) which has a real cool vibe and two 'outlets' of Beyond Bouldering (more upmarket and mainstream). I was at the Beyond Bouldering gym and noticed (i.e. was oggling) two very fit looking ladies. I guess you could call them 'hard bodies'. You know, ladies where a man might say, "Goodness, I wish I had [lats, abs, biceps, shoulders] like that lady". The sort of woman that makes one feel 'less manly'. 

Anyhoo, they were being shown around the place on a little guided tour by the manager. I thought it seemed odd that they were getting a special guided tour. The tour finished and they tackled some problems, about V1 - V2 range. They looked like they SHOULD have been able to do the problems but struggled. Little old Carl (with the emphasis on old) COULD do the problems. Easily.  And did. Multiple times. making sure he was looking to see if they were looking and admiring his 'dad bod' (or granddad bod').

When I went home I noticed a post on the gym's Facebook page about two players from the Crow's women's football team going to the gym. Now I'm not going to get in to a debate about which country's version of football is better (soccer Vs Gridiron Vs Rugby or whatever you want to call them) but Australian Rules football is a brutal sport. It requires tough men (and women) to play it. If you've not seen a game, look it up. Point is, these were elite athletes that were at the top of their game but they did NOT have those niche attributes. I would bet my bottom dollar we all have better grip strength than many elite sportspeople (unless they are carpenters as well, carpenters have fucking amazing grip strength).