Belay from the top with a micro traxion

Belaying the 2nd with a micro is definitely a thing.  It isn't a technique I'd recommend to the average climber and is definitely on the advanced level.  Without proper care and awareness there could be some poor outcomes but if done correctly it is a useful technique for certain circumstances.  I've mainly used is on terrain that is well below the followers ability and the likelihood of a fall is extremely low.  The follower is moving super fast so keeping the rope tight is challenging with something like a gri gr.  Using a Micro makes it a lost easier to pull up rope super quickly.

@Long Ranger - Here is a previous thread on fixing and following.  Fix and Follow?

Alex Fletcherwrote:

I would argue that the extra weight of jugging gear isn’t worth it. Also I’m guessing that these experts may free climb faster than jugging..? Also, free climbing is way more fun than jugging. Would make for an ascent “in better style.”

Sorry, I'm still exploring that these techniques are for, "expert level alpinists, using to climb huge routes within a weather window in Patagonia". What it sounds like to me (and I am no expert-level alpinist that climbs huge yadda/yadda) is the Klein, Wells and Prince accident in Yosemite. Except no one is going to be there to rescue you. So if I was short fixed and following the leader, I'm bringing something to jug, if my leader gets knocked out. I mean, I've got the pack with lunch and all the ice gear already, yeah? 

But for easy stuff, speedy stuff, I see the benefits of weird belay setups (and even then...) but not when I'm trying to be self-sufficient.

Long Rangerwrote:

What it sounds like to me... is the Klein, Wells and Prince accident in Yosemite. 

Vastly different, aside from the common thread of increased risk and unusual techniques used for climbing long routes quickly.  Fix and follow is not simulclimbing. Check out the thread Mikey posted a link to in the previous post.

As others have mentioned there are some real risks that you are taking by belaying a second with the micro traxion.   Those risks better be worth what you are gaining by using the micro traxion this way.   There are certain cases that might make it worth it, but in my mind none of those are on vertical fifth class rock pitches.   The grigri or alpine smart by mammut would be better devices in those situations.

Long Rangerwrote:

Sorry, I'm still exploring that these techniques are for, "expert level alpinists, using to climb huge routes within a weather window in Patagonia". What it sounds like to me (and I am no expert-level alpinist that climbs huge yadda/yadda) is the Klein, Wells and Prince accident in Yosemite. Except no one is going to be there to rescue you. So if I was short fixed and following the leader, I'm bringing something to jug, if my leader gets knocked out. I mean, I've got the pack with lunch and all the ice gear already, yeah? 

But for easy stuff, speedy stuff, I see the benefits of weird belay setups (and even then...) but not when I'm trying to be self-sufficient.

There's some confusion in this thread about short fixing vs rope solo seconding.  Rope solo seconding is a method that the second could use to follow a pitch that the leader short fixes (the other common method is to just jug) but can also happen independent of short fixing.  I use it in lieu of belaying up the second (ie not short fixing) all the time and love it.  The distinction between the two is that when short fixing, the leader pulls up a ton of slack before fixing the rope for the second to jug or rope solo so that he or she can start climbing again while the second does their thing.  More often the leader just fixes the rope without pulling up any slack (see Mikey's link for more details) and chills or hauls while the second climbs up to them.  This system is amazing and works really well.

Re the accident in Yosemite: short fixing (as defined above) was a pretty minor ancillary factor in that accident in that they'd short fixed one rope for Kevin while the other two were simuling easy terrain on the next pitch with a second rope.  The bigger factor contributing to what happened was simul climbing without adequate intermediate pro.  Short fixing and rope solo seconding had little to do with the tragic outcome that day.

Also, if you're rope solo seconding, you already have kit to jug with.  The system you're using to rope solo can be easily adapted to jugging.

(Outside of the realm of extreme alpinism) How about working to avoid all that rope friction in the first place?

-shorter pitch(es) , building the anchor at direction changes in the rope

-the usual: extending protection and using double ropes

-using some of those carabiners with built in rollers to clip your rope in

Tjaard Breeuwerwrote:

(Outside of the realm of extreme alpinism) How about working to avoid all that rope friction in the first place?

-shorter pitch(es) , building the anchor at direction changes in the rope

-the usual: extending protection and using double ropes

-using some of those carabiners with built in rollers to clip your rope in

All good points.  As for the belay itself:

The combo of rope/device/carabiner matters.  I've found a BD ATC Guide with a round stock carabiner (old Petzl Attache) and 9.2mm rope to be pretty friendly on the shoulders.

If setting a GriGri off the anchor, two points to be aware of. 1) The rope can "ooze" through the device when there is rope weight but not a sharp fall.  This is pretty disconcerting to the second so if going hands free be sure to tie a knot in the brake strand. 2) Make sure you have a feee floating masterpoint that prevents the cam on the Gri from touching anything.  If it got pinned against the rock in a second fall and failed to engage, that lovely reduced friction everyone is keen on suddenly becomes a real problem.

Philip Magistrowrote:

All good points.  As for the belay itself:
1) The rope can "ooze" through the grigri when there is rope weight but not a sharp fall.
2) Make sure you have a free floating masterpoint that prevents the cam on the Gri from touching anything.  If it got pinned against the rock in a second fall and failed to engage.

Good points. I have noticed both. To mitigate these I now use:

1) a grigri+ in toprope mode. Super grabby. No oozing whatsoever. Progress capture par excellence and rated and lowerable.
2) also I hang my grigri in the locking quickdraw, which I always carry. The dogbone's relative suppleness allows the grigri to move and twist as it needs and should the cam jam closed the belayer can, with a pronounced jerk, move the grigri to a place the cam can reopen. The follow will poop their pants nonetheless. A 17/18cm dogbone ist perfect for holding/directing.
3) If really worried about the follower, then the occasional knot on the dead rope or a prussik/trax on belay loop

When lowering always redirect the dead rope over the grigri's lip. I started leaving this step out and once a few meters suddenly slipped through on a stiff part of a bad rope.

Long Rangerwrote:

If you're gunna simul, simul. If not, jug it.

LR, I used to think the same thing, but sometimes you actually want to do the moves and free climb.  We did this as a party of 3 on Salathé and it was an awesome experience. 

Why not a gri gri 

I use this technique often in the same terms that Mikey has discussed. It also works great in the context the OP mentions when a pitch has lots of rope drag and is very straining for the belayer to pull rope. I don’t use this technique cragging but I have belayed with a trax more times than I can keep track of on long multi pitch. There is literally nothing that could go wrong in terms of rope damage without a poor belay or other user error that should be very evident. I feel like half the people commenting here are doing a brief google search or just dont what they are taking about. This is the most commonly used device for simul climbing and TR soloing. A top rope belay is much more controlled and hazard free than simul climbing. The biggest issues that could happen regarding not being able to release slack back towards the soft end of the rope. Say the follower needs a little slack to unclip a piece under a roof or worse case scenario the rope goes into a crack and you crank it tight as a piano string. It is important to know how to transfer the load and swap devices.  This has never happened to me and I climb with experienced climbers and maintain communication and understanding of systems being used. A grigri does not have a pulley in it so it will not function like a trax and assist in the same ways as being questioned/discussed.  

Dylan Valvowrote:

I use this technique often in the same terms that Mikey has discussed. It also works great in the context the OP mentions when a pitch has lots of rope drag and is very straining for the belayer to pull rope. I don’t use this technique cragging but I have belayed with a trax more times than I can keep track of on long multi pitch. There is literally nothing that could go wrong in terms of rope damage without a poor belay or other user errors that should be very evident. I feel like half the people commenting here are doing a brief google search or just dont what they are taking about. This is the most commonly used device for simul climbing and TR soloing. A top rope belay is much more controlled and hazard free than simul climbing. The biggest issues that could happen regarding not being able to release slack back towards the soft end of the rope. Say the follower needs a little slack to unclip a piece under a roof or worse case scenario the rope goes into a crack and you crank it tight as a piano string. It is important to know how to transfer the load and swap devices.  This has never happened to me and I climb with experienced climbers and maintain communication and understanding of systems being used. A grigri does not have a pulley in it so it will not function like a trax and assist in the same ways as being questioned/discussed.  

A micro traction might have a pulley but there is nk mechanical as I understand so what is the advantage to a trac vs a gri gri 

I am not sure what you mean by “there is no mechanical”. Mikey and the OP already stated the reason why they do this... There is a pulley in the system thus the rope is easier to pull when there is a large amount of resistance and when the rope needs to be pulled up at a faster rate. I feel like you are asking a valid question and not just being argumentative but when certain folks like Mikey who has EONS of experience voice an opinion then their word is of a much greater value than someone googling, pointing out useless and obvious info, reading user manuals, etc. There’s lots of folks on MP of Mikeys caliber in terms of knowledge and their opinions on subject matter has been based on experience and not the internet. Reading this thread the subject material has gotten so far off from the OP that I can tell people really just want to post to this page and not get the bottom of anything or even have an understanding of the system in question. Experience>arm chair expert 

Bobby, the Microtraxion has a 91% efficiency because of its pulley with sealed ball bearings, which means it's considerably easier to pull rope through it than with almost any other device.

This is a very specific advantage, and for most people it represents a very rare use case. In particular, you can't easily lower someone with this setup, it has significant chance to respond very very very poorly to an inattentive/slack belay, and the Micro is like a hundred and fifty bucks

Dylan Valvowrote:

I am not sure what you mean by “there is no mechanical”. Mikey and the OP already stated the reason why they do this... There is a pulley in the system thus the rope is easier to pull when there is a large amount of resistance and when the rope needs to be pulled up at a faster rate. I feel like you are asking a valid question and not just being argumentative but when certain folks like Mikey who has EONS of experience voice an opinion then their word is of a much greater value than someone googling, pointing out useless and obvious info, reading user manuals, etc. There’s lots of folks on MP of Mikeys caliber in terms of knowledge and their opinions on subject matter has been based on experience and not the internet. Reading this thread the subject material has gotten so far off from the OP that I can tell people really just want to post to this page and not get the bottom of anything or even have an understanding of the system in question. Experience>arm chair expert 

Just asking a question man calm the hell down 

I literally was asking a question because I don’t know 

I’m really getting tired of this shit. You can’t even ask a question on this forum without being ridiculed 

Pat Lightwrote:

Bobby, the Microtraxion has a 91% efficiency because of its pulley with sealed ball bearings, which means it's considerably easier to pull rope through it than with almost any other device.

This is a very specific advantage, and for most people it represents a very rare use case. In particular, you can't easily lower someone with this setup, it has significant chance to respond very very very poorly to an inattentive/slack belay, and the Micro is like a hundred and fifty bucks

Thanks for the explanation 

Bobby Swrote:

Just asking a question man calm the hell down 

I literally was asking a question because I don’t know 

I’m really getting tired of this shit. You can’t even ask a question on this forum without being ridiculed 

Thanks. I’m feeling much more calm now. I mentioned in my post there is a pulley in the device. Then once again in your post you bring up the fact there is a pulley the device. In elementary school we are taught the reason for simple mechanical systems such as a pulley/lever/wheel/ramp as they reduce the amount of force necessary to move an object. This is ridiculing. My previous post was actually directed towards how off topic this thread had gotten and not an attempt to make you feel poorly about yourself.  I am not being sarcastic right now. I’m sorry if I came off as a jerk before. I am aware I am being a jerk now. 

Pat Lightwrote:

Bobby, the Microtraxion has a 91% efficiency because of its pulley with sealed ball bearings, which means it's considerably easier to pull rope through it than with almost any other device.

This is a very specific advantage, and for most people it represents a very rare use case. In particular, you can't easily lower someone with this setup, it has significant chance to respond very very very poorly to an inattentive/slack belay, and the Micro is like a hundred and fifty bucks

 “slack in the belay will be catastrophic”. I’m aware of this limitation and my follower would be too.

“why not use a Grigri?” I typically only bring one grigri on long climbs where weight matters and as I said before, I am not comfortable going hands free on a grigri which can be a big advantage and they still are not as easy to feed as a micro. As far as cost, I would not be purchasing a micro traxion just for this purpose. I am just curious about getting more use out of tools I already own

“you can’t lower your follower as easily” I have never had to do this in a situation where they can’t unweight the rope. While this could be an issue in a very rare circumstance I’m not overly concerned.

I believe this thread kinda ended for me when Mikey chimed in.

Bug Boywrote:

 “slack in the belay will be catastrophic”. I’m aware of this limitation and my follower would be too.

 I am not comfortable going hands free on a grigri which can be a big advantage and they still are not as easy to feed as a micro. 

Under what circumstances would you go hands-free while belaying with a Micro?

I was talking to an AMGA alpine guide about this (prior to the thread on MP). He said they tend to use it to belay from the top when the terrain is very mellow and a fall is extremely unlikely, but they still need to put in a belay to satisfy their professional standards.

And in general, why instead of a grigri? Because many people don’t carry grigris in an alpine setting.