This redacted (renaming) routes is out of control!

It definitely feels like MP is just saying, "I'm not going to say that."

If only they did that I would have no beef at all. But rather its more like:

"I'm not going to say that so I will make up some shit and say that instead." 

Its the 'instead' part I object to. Just leave those objectionable routes off the site. Problem solved.

You do know that they are recording who among us is clicking through to the forbidden names? 

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

If only they did that I would have no beef at all. But rather its more like:

"I'm not going to say that so I will make up some shit and say that instead." 

Its the 'instead' part I object to. Just leave those objectionable routes off the site. Problem solved.

I thought name changes only occurred on MP if the submitter decides to change it. Otherwise the name stayed listed as just "[Redacted]." 

Dave K wrote:

What are your thoughts on the guy that named Negress Wall?

Sane as they always were: Bachar was a complicated guy who was married at one time to a woman of color (iirc). As posted, "Negress" is a sculpture depicting the horrors of slavery and should be required viewing of a proud human being reduced to an object for sale:

The name is part of Bachar's art and we will never know what exactly he meant. Ce la vie?

Climbing route names are sometimes simple "white boys will be immature privileged boys" hence using misogyny, vulgarity or racism or a greater commentary reflecting a deep gamut of the human experience in their route names.

Maybe we should censor Faulkner or Twain or Bukowski for using "forbidden speech" for white men to use? No, instead we should be required to take the time to understand their larger meaning before we criticize and censor. Art is like that.

Dave K wrote:

Lol, I didn't know license to use the N word could be granted through marriage.

Walling was spreading a fake story about a local being married to a black woman. Who knows why he made up that nonsense, maybe trying to be cute and/or maybe trying cover for his pal's racist fetish. That may be what you recall. Of course the usual fanboys lapped it up.

Whatever excuse one tries to use - a reference to statue or some awkward attempt to compare a climbing area to actual art - the outcome is lame.

You know what else is lame? Calling interracial marriage a "racist fetish."

Making things up is a new American norm. Its almost a competition to see how gullible people are. God bless America! Rewriting history is boring.

If all the fucked up shit we believed was actually true, we’d all be swell people.  

Few things are more evil than just making shit up and passing it off as truth to try to advance points, ideas, or benefit oneself.  

To function best (or at all) society needs a firm foundation of shared reality.   When our shared reality becomes a quicksand of relativistic “alternative facts” that are warped or created at whim to suit a particular want, we are lost and people who are fundamentally the same want to kill each other.  

I really want to know the facts behind this Walling story.  If true, that’s majorly F’d up

Dave K wrote:

Wow, the fake truth also comes with fake outrage! (and my wife will get a good laugh out of that one...)

From Marty Lewis' comments on the page for the area: https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105891376/redacted

"After digging around I have come to the conclusion that John Bachar most likely named this wall in 1989. John Bachar was obsessed with African-American culture. To reflect this, in joking he was often called John Blacker."

Nah... that's not fetish at all.

Not in the proper sense of the word it isn't. Nor is it racist. But you really want it to be, I can tell.

Dave K wrote:

Lol, I didn't know license to use the N word could be granted through marriage.

Walling was spreading a fake story about a local being married to a black woman. Who knows why he made up that nonsense, maybe trying to be cute and/or maybe trying cover for his pal's racist fetish. That may be what you recall. Of course the usual fanboys lapped it up.

Whatever excuse one tries to use - a reference to statue or some awkward attempt to compare a climbing area to actual art - the outcome is lame.

Everyone has license to use the "N" word if they don't care they are considered a racist.

I also know plenty of white people that use it to refer to themselves as just another down trodden victim of our system of crony capitalism/fascism (despite what privilege they still have).

Bachar was no hero of mine, but he was a historical climbing figure who most likely had the best of intentions when naming Negress wall.

Put it down to an only partly successful attempt at honoring the victims of slavery with a true meaning lost to posterity due to an ignorance of the importance of language to future generations and you have an apt example of his time: A partially formed man (like we all are) inadvertently exposing his incompleteness, despite his completeness as a rock climber. Another man with feet of clay despite his historic contribution to our sport. But one we didn't know well, truly.

Digging into that is more important, to me, than sanitizing route names so they can't possibly challenge someone to think about the how and the why.

'Negress' is different from 'Nigger', though, right? Or are they both considered the N word?

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

'Negress' is different from 'Nigger', though, right? Or are they both considered the N word?

Lmao just because you put it in quotes doesnt mean you're not going to get your post erased

Hamster Boondogglewrote:

Better to document someone's misogyny or racism as errors of the past rather than erase it and sweep it under the rug. Its not for censors to rehabilitate one's past. We have to own up to this past.

Agree 100%

I Fwrote:

Lmao just because you put it in quotes doesnt mean you're not going to get your post erased

Why should my post get erased? It's a serious question, because someone said having a black wife doesn't give Bachar license to use the N word, while what he named the wall was Negress Wall. And to my knowledge, Negress is not the N word and doesn't have a slur attached to it. I've rarely heard it at all today and don't know what it's used for now but historically it was synonymous with black woman iirc, and not a racial slur.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Why should my post get erased? It's a serious question, because someone said having a black wife doesn't give Bachar license to use the N word, while what he named the wall was Negress Wall. And to my knowledge, Negress is not the N word and doesn't have a slur attached to it. I've rarely heard it at all today and don't know what it's used for now but historically it was synonymous with black woman iirc, and not a racial slur.

Historically it was a slur for a black female slave iirc, though that edge (?) may have softened over time. Not for me to say.

Hamster Boondogglewrote:

Historically it was a slur for a black female slave iirc, though that edge (?) may have softened over time. Not for me to say.

I don't think that is fully correct. It is my understanding it originally meant black female person, kind of like "Irish" meaning a person from Ireland, though it could be used as a slur by people who hate Irish. It is regional, but I don't think it was considered a slur in itself until the late 60's/ early 70's when it became more hip to use "Black". Tabooness of words rotates around if you don't get to the root of the problem. That is why I think banning words is kind of silly. For example: Retarded, special needs, gifted etc. were all attempts to to be more respectful than "idiots" or whatever word was used before. If people still want to make fun of or insult people perceived as less intelligent, a different color etc. the new words just eventually become slurs.. 

M Spraguewrote:

I don't think that is fully correct. It is my understanding it originally meant black female person, kind of like "Irish" meaning a person from Ireland, though it could be used as a slur by people who hate Irish. It is regional, but I don't think it was considered a slur in itself until the late 60's/ early 70's when it became more hip to use "Black". Tabooness of words rotates around if you don't get to the root of the problem. That is why I think banning words is kind of silly. For example: Retarded, special needs, gifted etc. were all attempts to to be more respectful than "idiots" or whatever word was used before. If people still want to make fun of or insult people perceived as less intelligent, a different color etc. the new words just eventually become slurs.. 

Just like "negro" it is a dated term that has become offensive to Black Americans is my understanding hence, it being a (redacted) name for this climbing area.

Conversely, lets talk about "Trail of Tears" a now redacted name as well it should be. This one truly is shameful.

Comparatively, imo, this is far more truly offensive than "Negress" as it co-opts one of the most heinous crimes of genocide and forced relocation in the history of North American Colonization. This is not something that we should make light of as if the trials and tribulations of hobby new routing can compare to a forced death march of thousands of human beings exposed to starvation, disease and the elements while being relocated over a thousand miles from their ancestral homes. The specter of public shaming may not be quite enough to let this one stand.

How about Path of Purgatory or Trail of Tribulations or Steps to Perdition etc....so easy to come up with something similar while not co-opting and hence minimizing a truly horrific crime against humanity.

C'mon, FA team. Step up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

Hamster Boondogglewrote:

Conversely, lets talk about "Trail of Tears" a now redacted name as well it should be. This one truly is shameful.

Comparatively, imo, this is far more truly offensive than "Negress" as it co-opts one of the most heinous crimes of genocide and forced relocation in the history of North American Colonization. This is not something that we should make light of as if the trials and tribulations of new routing can compare to a forced death march of thousands of human beings exposed to starvation, disease and the elements while being located over a thousand miles from their ancestral homes. The specter of public shaming may not be quite enough to let this one stand.

How about Path of Purgatory or Trail of Tribulations or Steps to Perdition etc....so easy to come up with something similar while not co-opting and hence minimizing a truly horrific crime against humanity.

C'mon, FA team. Step up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

Are you, may I ask, Native American?

If anything this was a war crime. Doesn't change that it happened, but don't treat it like anything else. 

I'm also ready and willing to defend Andrew Jackson as one of the great presidents if the conversation turns to such things.

Hamster Boondogglewrote:

Conversely, lets talk about "Trail of Tears" a now redacted name as well it should be. This one truly is shameful.

Comparatively, imo, this is far more truly offensive than "Negress" as it co-opts one of the most heinous crimes of genocide and forced relocation in the history of North American Colonization. This is not something that we should make light of as if the trials and tribulations of new routing can compare to a forced death march of thousands of human beings exposed to starvation, disease and the elements while being located over a thousand miles from their ancestral homes. The specter of public shaming may not be quite enough to let this one stand.

How about Path of Purgatory or Trail of Tribulations or Steps to Perdition etc....so easy to come up with something similar while not co-opting and hence minimizing a truly horrific crime against humanity.

C'mon, FA team. Step up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

I actually disagree with that too, at least as a blanket rule. "trail of tears" is a common expression that was used also for that event. A local route with that name actually has a feature that looks like a trail of tears. Unless there is a related theme going on at the crag, I bet most "Trail of Tears" routes aren't referencing genocide and certainly aren't advocating it. Even if names do reference horrific events like battles, disasters and massacres, they are usually making an allusion through exaggeration. Humour noir is also a valuable form of expression and we would be lesser for it if we try to eliminate it because some don't get it and take things literally. Obviously there is a gradient into poor taste.

Dave K wrote:

The 1980s probably sounds like ancient history to some of you, but I know for sure that nobody used word negro in 1989 with good intentions.

Nevertheless, hillbilly has convinced me.  Like he said, "Better to document someone's misogyny or racism as errors of the past rather than erase it and sweep it under the rug."

Let the name stand, as a reminder to the climbing community of John Blacker's misogyny, racism, and idiocy.

Wow man, sucks to be you.