Does this count as "ground up" route development?

Fail Fallingwrote:

 If ground up versus pre-inspection is about style and not ethics then why are we so convinced that it's so important to define everyone's style as somewhere on the spectrum between pure or tainted?

I'm gonna say because it isn't about "style" it's about "dick wagging". (Or maybe those are the same thing?)

Not quite the same situation, but when i bolt routes from the ”top down“ on rappel, after finishing bolting the line, i do like to pull the rope and try to lead without any rehearsal of the moves.. My closest replication to trying to flash a line or at least give myself the same butt puckering experience the next leader will face dealing with run outs or harder sections. 

While climbing purports to be an activity without rules, there are indeed rules, even if not explicitly stated. Discussions such as this one are about interpreting the rules. In this case we are defining the term "ground up." My understanding of this term has always meant a first ascent without pre-inspection of any kind other than what can be done from the ground. This is part of the climb's style and may affect its character.

Beyond this, one of the most consistent and comprehensive ethical rules in climbing (and in many schools of thought around ethics?) is simply to be honest about what you did. Intentionally using an interpretation of "ground up" that differs from the norm would be deceitful and counter to that ethic of honesty. If the OP told me they did the route ground up and left it at that, I'd assume no pre-inspection. A more complete description would be to say they inspected the route on top rope, then put the bolts in ground up. At that point, the FAist and all who come after can have their own disagreements about good style or gatekeeping or measuring certain body parts or whatnot, which will almost certainly be rife with value judgments and ego. But at least everyone will then be on the same page about the terms of the debate and how the line went in.

Didn’t read all the reply’s,

Not ground up, but bolted on lead. But the rapping in, knowing that there is a line that goes, trundling trolls off, etc... takes away the unknown that is the defining characteristic of ground up climbing.

Even a 5.6 FA ground up, especially hand drilling, will be memorable! Versus once you “know” that it will be easy climbing, and it becomes just a slog.

You loose the best part of ground up, the unknown and the electric buzz tying in on such an attempt brings, while keeping the worst part (or at least most physically uncomfortable part), hand drilling off of stances and hooks.

Also, you get cleaner, better holes, and thus better bolts (and also possibly/probably better placement of bolts) with a power drill, if allowed, but also with a hand drill on rappel. 

I think you should watch this 

https://youtu.be/BHayyNIk0IU

Ground up: a Vermont climbing story

While climbing purports to be an activity without rules

Climbers have been arguing over the rules for 150 years or more.

First rule of Climbing:

1. We spray about climbing to other climbers.

Who the hell else is gonna listen?

Happy Sending in 2021.

Who actually gives a f*ck about "ground-up" development or whatever? I've rocked up to a cliff I'd never seen before, bolted a route soloing with no rope, gear and didn't hang on anything then reversed it. It's just another sport route.

What you described would be called "practice" for an actual ground up experience. 

Just want to point out that climbing has "rules" because without rules climbing couldn't possibly exist.  All of climbing, no matter where it is on the spectrum from the tradiest trad to the sportiest sport, relies on the voluntary renunciation of available means. Arguments about what the rules should be, and how they should be changed, have been with us for about as long as climbing---as an activity for its own sake---has existed. The rules are what make climbing what it is, so it shouldn't be at all surprising that arguments arise over possible changes. The idea that these rules are "ethics" does violence to the concept of ethics, but does reflect the passion of the people who have, in many instances, devoted their lives to the activity.

The history of climbing suggests that people get as far as possible with the rules they've adopted, and then a new generation, eager to progress further, suspends at some aspect of those rules in order to go beyond what has been done.  The older generation complains to no avail, but still usefully puts the brakes on a wholesale abandonment of the original enterprise.  And inevitably the rebels become elders and find themselves scandalized by the next generation's "transgressions."  An entropic descent into chaos does seem to be a possible feature of this process, as evidenced by the actual creation of holds where none were present, the carving up of the natural facade for the purpose of recreation, has increasingly become a part, if still a fringe activity, of the concept of "development." Surely one of the most fundamental precepts of the sport up until now is that nature supplies the difficulties.  Whether that remains part of the bedrock (to coin a phrase) remains to be seen.

Chris Hatzaiwrote:

Not quite the same situation, but when i bolt routes from the ”top down“ on rappel, after finishing bolting the line, i do like to pull the rope and try to lead without any rehearsal of the moves.. My closest replication to trying to flash a line or at least give myself the same butt puckering experience the next leader will face dealing with run outs or harder sections. 

So you are rapping in to place the bolts, but not checking the moves, flow, and clips before drilling?

If it’s a single pitch sport crag just just rap bolt it and do a really good job doing it.  GU definitely has its place, I just recently established a 5 pitch GU but it was the most practical way to do it.   A lot of single pitch GU routes I’ve established I ended up going back later and moving bolts or adding bolts on rappel to make it a better route than I could while doing it GU.    

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

A lot of single pitch GU routes I’ve established I ended up going back later and moving bolts or adding bolts on rappel to make it a better route than I could while doing it GU.    

Personally, I think the above is worth repeating.

I do get the reverence by many for GU first ascents.  But what really matters to me is the experience of the Nth ascent .... at least when bolts are part of the picture.  Otherwise, well, it goes. 

M Spraguewrote:

So you are rapping in to place the bolts, but not checking the moves, flow, and clips before drilling?

I know you have a way more experience than me but I personally look at the feature of the route and where approximate bolt locations make sense. Then when I rap down I move around where I want the bolt finding a stance. If I find a feasible stance I put a bolt in if I don’t then I lower another two feet. Once I put the bolt in I think about where the next bolt might go and lower 4-10 feet and feel the movement out again. I don’t necessarily try every single move. 

Trevor Taylorwrote:

I know you have a way more experience than me but I personally look at the feature of the route and where approximate bolt locations make sense. Then when I rap down I move around where I want the bolt finding a stance. If I find a feasible stance I put a bolt in if I don’t then I lower another two feet. Once I put the bolt in I think about where the next bolt might go and lower 4-10 feet and feel the movement out again. I don’t necessarily try every single move. 

There certainly are different ways of doing things. If you have an eye for doing it that way... It is kind of a weird hybrid.  It seems like it would lead to more mistakes, at least to those who climb it later.  If you don't already have them, a set of these https://climbtech.com/products/1-2-removable-anchor/  would be really handy. If after leading it, you want to change any of the placements, it is easier. If not, you have your holes ready.

Who the hell cares? Headpointing with a drill and bolts seems like an egotistical pursuit, whereas the appeal of bolting on lead is more so about venturing into the unknown.

It can be a fun exercise as a developer but chances are it will be at the expense of those who follow. Route quality is almost certainly going to be worse ground-up. Makes more sense for multi-pitch, but even then rap-bolting is often preferable if you can access the top.

Claudine Longetwrote:

What is the point of drilling it in ground up style after you've already set up a toprope and rehearsed the route, other than drilling it in worst possible method?

The only positive feature of a ground up route is the adventure of exploring. Every other aspect of one is shitty. The bolt placements are shitty. The bolt installation is shitty. 

Only if the FA party has no idea wtf they're doing. A bolt drilled from a stance will, obviously, be clippable. Drilling from hooks takes a little more savvy to get them in the best place. Say, for example, there's a sloper you can't hook, but it's a great hold to clip from. If going on up from there to the next good hook means a kooky run-out I would, and have on more than one occasion, found a way.

A lot of climbers have botched ground up FA's. A lot have also opened great climbs. You're generic "worst possible way" is wrong. 

I've always been a ground up guy. Lots of routes. Some people even like a few of them. Two, imo, are tainted in some way. Seamstress, at Courtright, turned into a death defying stunt on the FA simply because I couldn't stop or hook for a last bolt. So I did a route that no one in their right mind would ever want to do. The next year I rapped in and placed a bolt just where it needed to be. On Seizure at Josh, I TR'd first. I didn't want to start drilling on such a prominent location on a route that was so improbable. In retrospect I should probably left it as a TR.

Rap bolted sport? Cool with me and I love climbing 'em. I'd probably suck at putting them up so best I avoided that.

If the OP is talking about a sport climb all I can is why do it like that? If it was a traditional climb, he deprived himself of an adventure,

edit: With modern equipment, hand or power, there's no reason for bolts to be shitty because they were placed on lead.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Personally, I think the above is worth repeating.

I do get the reverence by many for GU first ascents.  But what really matters to me is the experience of the Nth ascent .... at least when bolts are part of the picture.  Otherwise, well, it goes. 

I don’t think anyone is arguing against that. However, I think the style of development and how it is defined matters to the OP (unless of course he is just being a troll trying to stirr the pot.)

Lone Pinewrote:

I don’t think anyone is arguing against that. However, I think the style of development and how it is defined matters to the OP (unless of course he is just being a troll trying to stirr the pot.)

Oh yes.  I know it matters to the OP.  The critical thing is whether it matters to the all the climbers in the world minus one.  I'm surprised it matters even so.