Incident: Climber's Bowline Came Untied While Climbing at Rifle

Mark Gommerswrote:
It is (un)surprising to me that F8 (#1047) [Fig.8 eye knot] failures are seldom reported - and instead - 'Bowline' failures make headlines.
Take this incident for example:
Link: http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213850/Fall-on-Rock-Incomplete-Tie-In-Knot
In this case, a female climbers' F8 tie-in knot came undone.
This report also points to another incident involving an F8 with Lynn Hill - where her F8 knot also failed (she fell some 20m to the ground).

The Lynn Hill-unfinished-Fig.8_eyeknot myth should be extinguished;

at least, in her own book, Climbing Free, she tells of having merely threaded her rope through her harness and then was distracted, and DID NOT TIE <name your favorite suspect> ANY knot.  She clearly states that what she would have tied as "a bowline".  So we should dispense with the "tying a knot with two parts, temporarily (i.e., making a base knot and then reeving the end through this to complete the knot, instead of tying being done in one fell soup (to quote Roy Blount :-) ), is prone to the error of forgetting about the 2nd part --possibly, but likely insignificantly more often then just forgetting ... to tie ANY knot.

Ah, a Rock&Ice article carries a quote of Lynn's recounting, ...>> “The thought occurred to me that there was something I needed to do before climbing,” she wrote in her memoir, Climbing Free. “I asked myself, Should I take my jacket off?” But the day was cool and she left it on, its bulk hiding the merely threaded rope end. <<

And it carries a useful instruction, often ignored, with knots specification ending at mere formation of the general structure :

>> "4. Remember, a knot’s not finished until you tighten it. A stiff new rope is more likely to loosen. Reef on it."<<

People also talk about 'a' Bowline or 'the' Bowline as if it were the only one - with no others in existence. There are several different types of 'Bowlines' - just like there are several different types of F8's. No surprise here either.

All 'Bowlines have 2 distinct advantages over the F8 (#1047) as follows:
1. They are totally jam resistant; and
2. They are Post Eye Tiable (PET).

An F8 (#1047) has neither of these characteristics.

Among the several types of F8s are those that are PET --essentially, one ties the base fig.8 with a slip-bight finishing, and then reeves the tail into that so as to make all secure.  No, you will not find this in your copy-the-others'-knots-books knots books & on-line literature, nor even in a better-researched pdf on bowlines.  But with some imagination, it IS findable.  Nor are all bowlines PET, except by defining "bowline" to be so, which I don't.  (Why, the fig.8 re-formed into a mid-flype state presents doubled loops/circles quite bowlinesque in function, and can yield eye knots happily thus; and so on.)

The reality is somewhat different.

Reality is what you make of it, sometimes.  (Though some things can't be changed by re-counting & re-re-counting.)

*kN*

knudeNoggin - you've breathed life into this old (presumed retired) thread topic!

With regard to the Lyn Hill report - the original source was Rob Chisnall...whom I have always found to be generally reliable.
Have you contacted him with respect to amending his narrative?

...

Your comment re 'PET" F8 knots is intriguing. Of course, in this instance - the discussion is in relation to tie-in knots for a rock climbers harness.
I am unaware of any knot derived or based on #1047 F8 (that is inherently secure) which can be directly tied into a climbing harness in PET form?

With regard to defining [a] 'Bowline' - it was debated and settled quite some time ago (elsewhere in a dedicated knot forum) that the key component is the 'nipping loop' - the absence of which disqualifies a knot as being [a] 'Bowline'. Although this is getting into the realm of the knot geek - and not sure if this is the appropriate place to get into a deep theoretical discussion on knot geometry?

In terms of your discussed "reality" - not sure about the counting and re-counting,...but I can comment that there are no laws or legislation that compels a climber to adopt any mandated knot for 'tying-n'. Its a matter of personal choice (for a recreational climber) - but, a professional Guide/Instructor would be expected to follow his/her parent associations protocols for 'tying-in' (for both self and client). For the recreational climber - there is nothing intrinsically wrong with choosing to 'tie-in' with #1047 Figure 8 or any of the inherently secure 'Bowlines'.

Inadvertence and/or simple human error can occur with any 'tie-in' knot - and so partner/buddy checking is good practice. Obviously, a solo climber has no such opportunity and so must be totally self-reliant. My original contention was that there appeared to be a bias toward associating such inadvertence/errors with 'Bowlines' - possibly due to some content writers having their own agenda? Apportioning blame (for tying errors) toward any one particular knot species is nonsensical (in my view).

The  vast  majority  of  climbers use the figure 8. A tiny  minority use the bowline.   The  majority of tie in  failures  are  bowline.  Is what it is. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

The  vast  majority  of  climbers use the figure 8. A tiny  minority use the bowline.   The  majority of tie in  failures  are  bowline.  Is what it is. 

Yes, where a 'vast majority' === 'all the Americans I climb around'. Most Europeans use the bowline while single pitch climbing.

certainly in this country that is the case.  the numbers here speak for themselves.  I am not  well read on what kinds of accidents you guys have in Europe. 

everyone uses a fig 8.  a very few people are super cool and use the bowline. every now and then one of them goes splat and the rest of them make a big stink about don't blame the knot blame the user. .. 

Nick, a lot of people use bowlines and manage to tie it correctly and they don't go splat from knot failure. Every time I have heard of a so called bowline failure it is usually somebody doesn't  finish their knot or they simply don't know how to tie them. Personally, I mess up 8s (don't start with the correct amount of extra length before rethreading the 8) and have to retie it way more than when I do my usual double bowline with a fishermans stopper knot. If you only tie half of your figure 8 it isn't going to work very well either. Know your knot, tie it well and snug it up  with a proper stopper and tail and have a routine double checking system so it feels weird  if you don't do it.  You don't have to be pedantic about using an 8.  The only time I use Figure 8s is when I am clipping off the end of a fixed rope to an anchor or something or am climbing at an uptight gym (I don't usually want to go back). A double bowline has a number of advantages over the figure 8 in my book.. I also bet you are pulling your use numbers out of your ass;)

 8 is simple, it works, its easy to untie , easy to isnspect.  and it never comes loose.  I weigh 190 ish and have taken 30footers with the 36v bosch and the whole ground up FSA kit hanging  off my butt and still had no problem.  un tying. 

Concerning the Figure 8, there are different versions...has this been posted yet? (I'm trying hard to retrain myself to tie the Figure 8 differently, but it's hard to break decades of a habit pattern, and I'm getting on inb years.)

https://youtu.be/QAr-uHd8h8o    (Why Figure 8 knot is NOT hard to untie!)

I confess I haven't read this entire thread. Sorry if this is redundant.

Daniel Joderwrote:

Concerning the Figure 8, there are different versions...has this been posted yet? (I'm trying hard to retrain myself to tie the Figure 8 differently, but it's hard to break decades of a habit pattern, and I'm getting on inb years.)

https://youtu.be/QAr-uHd8h8o    (Why Figure 8 knot is NOT hard to untie!)

I confess I haven't read this entire thread. Sorry if this is redundant.

Yes it was posted. Frankly,  I find it easier to tie double bowline with finishing knot than muck around with properly dressed fig8. But, that said,  I use fig8 for multipitch, fixed rope work, and in the gym.

Let's agree on one thing - whatever knot you're using, tie it properly, double check. Do not not check your knot

My last comment was not additive to the conversation, so I'll try again:

My wife and I do a very simple but effective check to our system on EVERY CLIMB. We climb to the first piece, and then have our partner take. We then sit on the rope and double check everything. This ensures the belay device is correct, the knot is correct, and the system is closed.

If it feels ethically questionable at that point, lower back to the ground and immediately begin climbing again, with the rope through the first piece.

I check my knot on every bolt when I'm sport climbing

It doesn't matter which of several good knots you use, but it matters greatly that you do proper partner checks before leaving the ground.

If wishes were fishes...

But I just wish everyone would tie the Figure 8.  I've had to teach myself to tie in with the double bowline just so I can verify it for the occasional partner who chooses to tie in with it.

It certainly does seem that more accidents happen as a result of the bowline and its many variations, but as hillbilly says, partner checks should be the final failsafe.  That said...it would be easier to do partner checks if there were only one knot that people were checking.  

And if you're so concerned about having to untie a welded knot, maybe you should stop falling and hangdogging your way up everything! ;P

I use a bowline of one variety or another any time I'm with a new partner. Their reaction basically tells me everything I need to know about that person.

That  sounds  super  intelligent. 

To clarify, I tie in with a safe knot. It isn't a "made up" knot to trick them or anything. 

Once I climbed with a girl who did this to me after meeting her for the first time at Smith Rock. She used a double bowline yos finish, so when it was my turn to climb I did the same. I should've asked her out, maybe we would've got along well.

20 years of tying a bowline with the fisherman’s backup 

I can tie it blindfolded and feel 100% secure using it 

my 2 cents 

I'm so weary of this debate and the sky-is-falling prognosticators of doom.  My personal opinion as someone who has survived 63 [Edit: now 65] years of non figure-8 tie-ins:

1. Learn to tie, dress, and if appropriate, back up a suitable knot.   There is more than one.

2. Check your knot and harness buckle every time without fail.  Once you are past the total beginner stage, it should not be up to someone else to verify you have tied your knot correctly. I think there's a good chance their inspection will be too cursory anyway.  You tied it, you presumably know exactly how it should look, it is your life, verify your knot or die.

3. That said, it is valuable to have a partner check that you have tied a knot. This is far more of an issue than properly tied, dressed, and backed-up knots unraveling---in fact, I suspect that it is really the only issue.

In the early days at Rifle (I was a friend of Richard Wright), I was following some line in one of the caves to clean the draws and had a large microwave block with a bolt in it slide into my lap before I could unclip. My belayer had to hold my fat ass and also a 20" x 20" x 20" cube of limestone while I somehow managed to pull in enough to create enough slack to unclip myself from it and let it fall 50' into the dirt, where it made a crater. I was dicking around with bowlines when leading at the time. I wonder if I would have survived that with a half assed, distracted bowline. I do know the figure 8 I did use was near impossible to untie.