is trad climbing more dangerous than sport?

genuinely curious what people think.

this a was an aside in another thread that didn’t need this discussion, too

so: is climbing with gear more dangerous than sport climbing?

i’m not talking the bachar-yerian. not alpine climbing. assuming you know how to place gear (well) and thoroughly understand how to protect yourself. is what you are doing more dangerous than sport climbing?

Is an apple better than a kiwi?

It depends.

Sport: You're limited to the FA's vision of bolt placements. Some places are bolted safely and others are not.
Trad: If the rock has enough features to place gear then you can stitch it up. If the features are lacking then you might have to run it out or take on extra risks.

Ultimately, you choose which routes to get on for reasons known to you when assessing risks:rewards.

Gumby king is right, it depends more on the route than the style.

I Fwrote:

Is an apple better than a kiwi?

No

Sport climbing:  Bolt condition is unknown, equiper is unknown, and often aren’t bolted to protect blown bolts.

In reality it’s trad climbing because of the human, gear, environment factors. 

I Fwrote:

Is an apple better than a kiwi?

Yes 

I Fwrote:

Is an apple better than a kiwi?

Is a kiwi better than an apple?

Yes.

Gumby Kingwrote:

It depends.

Sport: You're limited to the FA's vision of bolt placements. Some places are bolted safely and others are not.
Trad: If the rock has enough features to place gear then you can stitch it up. If the features are lacking then you might have to run it out or take on extra risks.

Ultimately, you choose which routes to get on for reasons known to you when assessing risks:rewards.

Id say it also largely depends on the individual placing the gear ...a gumby can stitch it up all they want but they may watch it zipper out on the way down 

No

I would say, as a guess, that 95% of the trad climbing that I do is more dangerous than the sport climbing that I do, even though I often sport climb at 2-3 letter grades harder than I will trad climb these days. Your experience may vary. 

You're forgetting the human factor. Trad climbers tend to be better climbers and make less mistakes than sport climbers. 

More variables, more knowledge and skill required to do it safely = more dangerous.  See also: X ratings. Because people on this forum get mighty defensive that sport climbs can never be X. 

Tradibanwrote:

You're forgetting the human factor. Trad climbers tend to be better climbers and make less mistakes than sport climbers. 

Agree ... at least about the contribution by the human factor.

To put it another way: the degree of danger depends on the noggin’ on the sharp end. The influence from the route type is on average way down in the noise.  

Bill Lawrywrote:

Agree ... at least about the contribution by the human factor.

To put it another way: the degree of danger depends on the noggin’ on the sharp end. The influence from the route type is on average way down in the noise.  

It begs the question: What does "more dangerous" mean? Does it mean the potential for injury is higher? Does it mean injuries are more frequent? Or does it simply mean the injuries are worse? Or maybe all three?!

Discuss.

Given the bolting I see in NZ, I am just as likely to injure myself on a sport climb as on a trad climb, or possibly more likely - I slammed my heel into a slab after a very special brain-fart on a 10a sport route here recently, and it's still a pain 4 weeks later. If I'd taken gear up, I'd have had an easy intermediate nut placement to tame it. Bolts are expensive and permanent, and often placed according to the wingspan and risk-acceptance of the bolter. Gear goes in wherever it can. On the whole, I much prefer gear.

Sport becomes X when you screw up at the anchor. When your belayer drops you by letting the end of the rope through the Gri gri that's usually just R...

It does seem like a lot of sport climbing fatalities happen at the anchor. There are a large variety of ways to get chopped on traditional routes. 

Fail Fallingwrote:

Yes 

Says the aid climber.

Hundreds of climbers die every year on Double Cross

Alex Guzmanwrote:

Says the aid climber.

Well I didn't want to bring up aid and make the sport and trad climbers cry.

Though I'm not sure why thinking apples are better than kiwis has anything to do with aid, and most of the Kiwis I've met are pretty cool, except for one, he was an ass.