An argument against stick clips

Hi Ricky, not sure where you are climbing and developing. I lived in Sac area for a while and didn’t do a ton of sport climbing there, but did frequent Tahoe area Sport areas like Emeralds, Bowman, and Big Chief and at Eastside areas like ORG. I also climb at NRG quite a bit and some local sport areas and have at least visited many major sport areas around the country. The vast majority of the time at these areas I regularly see people with stick clips. Even if every party does not have one , there is almost always one within sight. I think that your assertion that most sport climbers don’t bring them is a little misleading and probably highly influenced by where you climb. I suspect you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a stick clip at Smith or Rumney.

Dan Daugherty wrote:

Maybe they should consider the stick clip a necessary part of their gear if they are going to clip bolts, especially if they are climbing close to their limit. I feel like this is like going up to a trad climb and the first piece is a #1 but not having a #1 on your rack.

I don't know where you climb, but I've never been to a sport crag with other people there and there not be at least one stick clip other than mine. I'll admit that I climb in pretty popular areas so maybe my experience isn't typical.

Things might be really different out here in California, I don't know. We don't have a huge amount of sport climbing here in NorCal and we have much more of a trad climbing culture that permeates strongly into the sport climbing scene. I've had two 5.11 sport leaders tell me that that my stick clip is the first one they've seen and I've had a few situations where there was a sketchy first bolt on a climb a party next to me was climbing and I offered them the use of my stick clip, and when they accepted my offer I had to show them how to use it. I would say that on routes in NorCal where using a stick clip is a good idea that well under half of all ascents use one. 

csproulwrote:

Hi Ricky, not sure where you are climbing and developing. I lived in Sac area for a while and didn’t do a ton of sport climbing there, but did frequent Tahoe area Sport areas like Emeralds, Bowman, and Big Chief and at Eastside areas like ORG. I also climb at NRG quite a bit and some local sport areas and have at least visited many major sport areas around the country. The vast majority of the time at these areas I regularly see people with stick clips. Even if every party does not have one , there is almost always one within sight. I think that your assertion that most sport climbers don’t bring them is a little misleading and probably highly influenced by where you climb. I suspect you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a stick clip at Smith or Rumney.

Interesting. Sounds like maybe Tahoe has a more developed sport climbing scene. I've only done a few days of sport climbing out that way. Still, though, having some stick clips around the crag doesn't mean that most parties are using them. Do you think most parties are? I agree that at major sport climbing destinations like Owen's they are a common sight, but still the majority of times where it seems like an awfully good idea to use one I see high first bolts being clipped on lead. 

It does seem like there has been a change in ethic where it used to be a grey area whether or not you got a redpoint/onsight whatever if you stick clipped the first or second bolt, where as now I think most would agree that it is a redpoint. This might lay the groundwork for them becoming much more popular. I certainly agree that they are a great safety innovation and that routes bolted with stick clips in mind are safer if a stick clip actually gets used.

Dan Daugherty wrote:

All I know is that I was on the fence about checking out Orange Oswald this weekend and now I feel like I need to just make the trip to see what all the fuss is about. With my ClipUp, of course.

Since the water level is dropping, get on this - Masuko instead

Are you allowed to stickclip the first bolt on a mixed route?

I've seen a big increase in the number of stick clips at my local crags (NorCal) in the last 5 years or so, including my first one. I don't know why I waited so long, it's been very helpful to have one. I have mostly climbed trad but have a renewed interest in sport lately.  It used to be just hard core sport climbers, but now I see a lot of new/younger climbers with them. They seem to be thought of as part of the kit by a lot of people now. I bolt according to 1. what I think is best for the climb, 2. what the crag standard is. I've been developing new crags so I can do whatever I want and if someone stumbles across them, they are adventurous enough to be able to figure out if they need a stick clip.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

I don't think it's placating babies. A large part of the idea of sport climbing is that it's a safer alternative. There is no reason for climbers to be free soloing 20 to 30 feet off the ground because of bad bolting, which is not uncommon around me, especially on routes put up in the 70s and 80s and on moderates. Bolting routes safely even without stick clips in mind is a very easy thing to do and requires not very much more thought, time, or bolts. Under modern climbing norms it is the right of the FA to put up the route how they want. If you want to put up a poorly-bolted groundfall-fest 5.9 (as most are around me) then feel free to do so, but then the rest of the community is in their right to think that such route developers are twats. 

If you happen upon "stick-clip-intended" first bolt, you can:

-Use a stick clip

-Borrow a stick clip

-Clip it with an actual stick (which I've done hundreds of times)

-Ask someone stronger to hang the first draw

-Traverse in from a easier route

-Get stronger

-Be careful

-Just climb a different route

You're pretty much advocating that "more bolts" is preferable to all the perfectly reasonable options listed above, which isn't a sentiment that's gonna get a lot of support around these parts. Not every 10a needs to be a candidate for everyone's first 10a.

Bottom line.  If safety is the main concern, the stick clip method of bolting is preferable.   Placing more bolts and lower, is actually more risky of groundfall, more expensive, more negative visual and resource impact, more rope drag, etc etc.    only benefit is no need for the stick clip itself.  

After weighing all the factors, advantage goes to stick clip. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

Never understood why people don't use a crash pad for the first "piece of pro" more. Yeah I get it if you don't have a crash pad, but if you do they tend to have great suspension systems these days so used as a backpack they are waaay more comfortable than they use to be, all your friends will be jealous of the most comfy place to chill at the crag and they are easier to operate than a stick clip!  

Usually 2 people have backpacks full of gear. But with 3 or more people it's probably a great idea and as a bonus it's a great place to chill and change your shoes.

Todd Berlier wrote:

Never understood why people don't use a crash pad for the first "piece of pro" more. Yeah I get it if you don't have a crash pad, but if you do they tend to have great suspension systems these days so used as a backpack they are waaay more comfortable than they use to be, all your friends will be jealous of the most comfy place to chill at the crag and they are easier to operate than a stick clip!  

What takes up more space and is bulkier and heavier to carry?  Crashpad or a clip stick?  What has greater impact on the cliff base ecosystem?  

Todd Berlier wrote:

Never understood why people don't use a crash pad for the first "piece of pro" more. Yeah I get it if you don't have a crash pad, but if you do they tend to have great suspension systems these days so used as a backpack they are waaay more comfortable than they use to be, all your friends will be jealous of the most comfy place to chill at the crag and they are easier to operate than a stick clip!  

A few weeks ago my group brought a crash pad up to the Zoo at RRG and it was awesome. Great place to rest, eat lunch, nap, watch other climbers, etc. The ground where we were climbing was all dirt and rock so there was no destruction of the biosphere from the pad. Not going to do it every time but if I have a group of 3+ and someone isn't carrying the draws/rope/stickclip/etc. they're carrying the crashpad.

Todd Berlier wrote:

oh for sure you are correct on space and bulkier--you also forgot to mention how much more expensive they are--which is why my post is framed around the if you already have one. also, assumed is that one wouldn't carry one in to the third pillar of dana--that ain't practical. I am not sure I buy your impact statement tho...all of one's weight concentrated in a small area standing and walking around the base of a climb seems more impactful than spreading the load onto a 3 x 4 foot area? I am not a physicist but that doesn't make sense to me. 

People will throw pads on plants, bushes, etc. I don’t know how long you’ve been bouldering, but  many popular boulders used to have plant life at the base prior to pads. I have four pads of varying sizes. One even works as a pack. However, I’d much rather drag a stick clip to a sport crag than a bouldering pad. 

 I've had three different partners, all old school trad climbers get injured because they wouldn't use a stick clip. Unfortunately one of them was on a route I had bolted. Can't save all the people all the time

I really have no idea who wants what here. 

Stick clips cost money though, fuck that.

Personally, I think a lot of this discussion is just geographic bias. 

If your local climbing area tends to have easier starts, it's less of an issue. But I can think of limestone crags in SW Ontario that have been developed with high first bolts and an expectation that they'll be stick clipped. Why? Because they're often bouldery starts and low first bolts aren't really effective anyway. I'd say that the local community "gets it" and stick clipping is just accepted practice.

And this is a good thing! Why should sport climbing should be more dangerous than it has to be? Traditional style is different story, obviously...

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

I really have no idea who wants what here. 

Stick clips cost money though, fuck that.

Stick clips are the cheapest part of climbing, max $50 I lend mine to everyone around. To other posters sometimes a stick clip mandatory start is the safest option (chossy start, bouldery start, best option for rope drag) and sometimes you can put more bolts lower. When I develop I aim to maximize joy climbers could have and others love to scare people.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

I really have no idea who wants what here. 

Stick clips cost money though, fuck that.

So do bolts.  Oh, wait, you thought they just appeared in the rock for free?  Tell you what, you fund the extra 2 bolts on every route you want to climb without using a stick clip -- maybe people will be happy to put them in.  Wait, that costs more than a stick clip?  Oh well.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Saying that climbers should be using stick clips solves nothing. Most still don't. If you design your route with stick clips in mind it will mostly get climbed without them. .

Rumney guide book, Ward Smith, 2009. "_stick clipping_ This practice is now considered standard at most sport climbing areas."

Skaha Climbing, 1st ed, Marc Bourdon, 2018. "Finally, most climbers carry a stick clip these days and it can come in very handy in Skaha..."

Briancon Climbs, Yann, Jonnathan, Martine, Jean-Jacques Roland, 2015. "do not hesitate to clip in advance the first two bolts before you start your climb"

Three guidebooks from three different countries (USA, Canada, France) all advocating for pre-clipping/stick-clipping the opening bolt(s) of a climb.  

At sport climbing areas, stick-clipping and bolting with that in mind is standard practice.

David Gibbswrote:

So do bolts.  Oh, wait, you thought they just appeared in the rock for free?  Tell you what, you fund the extra 2 bolts on every route you want to climb without using a stick clip -- maybe people will be happy to put them in.  Wait, that costs more than a stick clip?  Oh well.

Bolts can be wherever people want to put them, bro. I've never found a route that I wasn't chill with climbing a bit runout at the start cause I didn't have a clip. My point wasn't to put extra bolts in so I don't have to use a clip - I'd rather have a little scary start than spend some cash on a clip.

And it was a flippant joke in the first place.

Oh, a scary start is okay? What about a dangerous start? Is that okay?

if 5.12b is your limit, the first twenty feet are a long V4, and the landing is rocky... what makes more sense. This scenario is extremely common at many sport climbing areas.

a. Stick clipping a high first bolt. Simple, effective, requires a $50 tool (or a stick and some tape).

b. Three bolts in the first twenty feet. If you blow clip two or three you’ll deck and likely break an ankle.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Stick clips are the cheapest part of climbing, max $50 I lend mine to everyone around.

I second this. Mine cost <$5 and 5 minutes because I found a painters pole at work. Made a lot of friends from it too bc any deck at my crag means breaking an ankle on a talus field. Cheapest friends I ever bought!