An argument against stick clips

Dan Daugherty wrote:

All I know is that I was on the fence about checking out Orange Oswald this weekend and now I feel like I need to just make the trip to see what all the fuss is about. With my ClipUp, of course.

Since the water level is dropping, get on this - Masuko instead

Are you allowed to stickclip the first bolt on a mixed route?

I've seen a big increase in the number of stick clips at my local crags (NorCal) in the last 5 years or so, including my first one. I don't know why I waited so long, it's been very helpful to have one. I have mostly climbed trad but have a renewed interest in sport lately.  It used to be just hard core sport climbers, but now I see a lot of new/younger climbers with them. They seem to be thought of as part of the kit by a lot of people now. I bolt according to 1. what I think is best for the climb, 2. what the crag standard is. I've been developing new crags so I can do whatever I want and if someone stumbles across them, they are adventurous enough to be able to figure out if they need a stick clip.

Ricky Harline wrote:

I don't think it's placating babies. A large part of the idea of sport climbing is that it's a safer alternative. There is no reason for climbers to be free soloing 20 to 30 feet off the ground because of bad bolting, which is not uncommon around me, especially on routes put up in the 70s and 80s and on moderates. Bolting routes safely even without stick clips in mind is a very easy thing to do and requires not very much more thought, time, or bolts. Under modern climbing norms it is the right of the FA to put up the route how they want. If you want to put up a poorly-bolted groundfall-fest 5.9 (as most are around me) then feel free to do so, but then the rest of the community is in their right to think that such route developers are twats. 

If you happen upon "stick-clip-intended" first bolt, you can:

-Use a stick clip

-Borrow a stick clip

-Clip it with an actual stick (which I've done hundreds of times)

-Ask someone stronger to hang the first draw

-Traverse in from a easier route

-Get stronger

-Be careful

-Just climb a different route

You're pretty much advocating that "more bolts" is preferable to all the perfectly reasonable options listed above, which isn't a sentiment that's gonna get a lot of support around these parts. Not every 10a needs to be a candidate for everyone's first 10a.

Bottom line.  If safety is the main concern, the stick clip method of bolting is preferable.   Placing more bolts and lower, is actually more risky of groundfall, more expensive, more negative visual and resource impact, more rope drag, etc etc.    only benefit is no need for the stick clip itself.  

After weighing all the factors, advantage goes to stick clip. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

Never understood why people don't use a crash pad for the first "piece of pro" more. Yeah I get it if you don't have a crash pad, but if you do they tend to have great suspension systems these days so used as a backpack they are waaay more comfortable than they use to be, all your friends will be jealous of the most comfy place to chill at the crag and they are easier to operate than a stick clip!  

Usually 2 people have backpacks full of gear. But with 3 or more people it's probably a great idea and as a bonus it's a great place to chill and change your shoes.

Todd Berlier wrote:

Never understood why people don't use a crash pad for the first "piece of pro" more. Yeah I get it if you don't have a crash pad, but if you do they tend to have great suspension systems these days so used as a backpack they are waaay more comfortable than they use to be, all your friends will be jealous of the most comfy place to chill at the crag and they are easier to operate than a stick clip!  

What takes up more space and is bulkier and heavier to carry?  Crashpad or a clip stick?  What has greater impact on the cliff base ecosystem?  

Todd Berlier wrote:

Never understood why people don't use a crash pad for the first "piece of pro" more. Yeah I get it if you don't have a crash pad, but if you do they tend to have great suspension systems these days so used as a backpack they are waaay more comfortable than they use to be, all your friends will be jealous of the most comfy place to chill at the crag and they are easier to operate than a stick clip!  

A few weeks ago my group brought a crash pad up to the Zoo at RRG and it was awesome. Great place to rest, eat lunch, nap, watch other climbers, etc. The ground where we were climbing was all dirt and rock so there was no destruction of the biosphere from the pad. Not going to do it every time but if I have a group of 3+ and someone isn't carrying the draws/rope/stickclip/etc. they're carrying the crashpad.

Todd Berlier wrote:

oh for sure you are correct on space and bulkier--you also forgot to mention how much more expensive they are--which is why my post is framed around the if you already have one. also, assumed is that one wouldn't carry one in to the third pillar of dana--that ain't practical. I am not sure I buy your impact statement tho...all of one's weight concentrated in a small area standing and walking around the base of a climb seems more impactful than spreading the load onto a 3 x 4 foot area? I am not a physicist but that doesn't make sense to me. 

People will throw pads on plants, bushes, etc. I don’t know how long you’ve been bouldering, but  many popular boulders used to have plant life at the base prior to pads. I have four pads of varying sizes. One even works as a pack. However, I’d much rather drag a stick clip to a sport crag than a bouldering pad. 

 I've had three different partners, all old school trad climbers get injured because they wouldn't use a stick clip. Unfortunately one of them was on a route I had bolted. Can't save all the people all the time

I really have no idea who wants what here. 

Stick clips cost money though, fuck that.

Personally, I think a lot of this discussion is just geographic bias. 

If your local climbing area tends to have easier starts, it's less of an issue. But I can think of limestone crags in SW Ontario that have been developed with high first bolts and an expectation that they'll be stick clipped. Why? Because they're often bouldery starts and low first bolts aren't really effective anyway. I'd say that the local community "gets it" and stick clipping is just accepted practice.

And this is a good thing! Why should sport climbing should be more dangerous than it has to be? Traditional style is different story, obviously...

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

I really have no idea who wants what here. 

Stick clips cost money though, fuck that.

Stick clips are the cheapest part of climbing, max $50 I lend mine to everyone around. To other posters sometimes a stick clip mandatory start is the safest option (chossy start, bouldery start, best option for rope drag) and sometimes you can put more bolts lower. When I develop I aim to maximize joy climbers could have and others love to scare people.

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

I really have no idea who wants what here. 

Stick clips cost money though, fuck that.

So do bolts.  Oh, wait, you thought they just appeared in the rock for free?  Tell you what, you fund the extra 2 bolts on every route you want to climb without using a stick clip -- maybe people will be happy to put them in.  Wait, that costs more than a stick clip?  Oh well.

Ricky Harline wrote:

Saying that climbers should be using stick clips solves nothing. Most still don't. If you design your route with stick clips in mind it will mostly get climbed without them. .

Rumney guide book, Ward Smith, 2009. "_stick clipping_ This practice is now considered standard at most sport climbing areas."

Skaha Climbing, 1st ed, Marc Bourdon, 2018. "Finally, most climbers carry a stick clip these days and it can come in very handy in Skaha..."

Briancon Climbs, Yann, Jonnathan, Martine, Jean-Jacques Roland, 2015. "do not hesitate to clip in advance the first two bolts before you start your climb"

Three guidebooks from three different countries (USA, Canada, France) all advocating for pre-clipping/stick-clipping the opening bolt(s) of a climb.  

At sport climbing areas, stick-clipping and bolting with that in mind is standard practice.

David Gibbs wrote:

So do bolts.  Oh, wait, you thought they just appeared in the rock for free?  Tell you what, you fund the extra 2 bolts on every route you want to climb without using a stick clip -- maybe people will be happy to put them in.  Wait, that costs more than a stick clip?  Oh well.

Bolts can be wherever people want to put them, bro. I've never found a route that I wasn't chill with climbing a bit runout at the start cause I didn't have a clip. My point wasn't to put extra bolts in so I don't have to use a clip - I'd rather have a little scary start than spend some cash on a clip.

And it was a flippant joke in the first place.

Oh, a scary start is okay? What about a dangerous start? Is that okay?

if 5.12b is your limit, the first twenty feet are a long V4, and the landing is rocky... what makes more sense. This scenario is extremely common at many sport climbing areas.

a. Stick clipping a high first bolt. Simple, effective, requires a $50 tool (or a stick and some tape).

b. Three bolts in the first twenty feet. If you blow clip two or three you’ll deck and likely break an ankle.

Jake Jones wrote:

To whomever sees me out and about:  My stick clip is up for grabs any time you want, for pretty much whatever reason.  Even if it's a low first bolt, even if you want to presto extendo your TR to third bolt or stick your way to the anchors.  I don't want anyone to get hurt and ruin their day, and selfishly I don't want mine ruined.  So please, if you need a stick and don't have one and there are parties nearby, I'm pretty sure everyone feels the same way I do, just ask.  I'm more than happy to keep someone safer if I can.

^^^Same here^^^

Muir Valley in RRG (pay to park/play) there is a garbage can in the kiosk of stick clips you can use for the day, honor system. They are probably ones that got left behind by other climbers. But there wasn't one crag at Muir Valley where there wasn't at least one stick clip, and everybody is cool about borrowing. The Zoo was the same way, ton of strong kids willing to share, one even offered to hang the first hard to clip draw for us old guys.  

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

Bolts can be wherever people want to put them, bro. I've never found a route that I wasn't chill with climbing a bit runout at the start cause I didn't have a clip. My point wasn't to put extra bolts in so I don't have to use a clip - I'd rather have a little scary start than spend some cash on a clip.

And it was a flippant joke in the first place.

You know what's more expensive than a stick clip? A broken ankle.

Mark Paulson wrote:

If you happen upon "stick-clip-intended" first bolt, you can:

-Use a stick clip

-Borrow a stick clip

-Clip it with an actual stick (which I've done hundreds of times)

-Ask someone stronger to hang the first draw

-Traverse in from a easier route

-Get stronger

-Be careful

-Just climb a different route

Yeah, I agree. My argument is primarily against routes that just have bad or lazy bolting. You and I both want routes to be safer. You said yourself it doesn't make sense to have a route with a dangerous start when a high first bolt is such a simple solution. We agree that starts with significant groundfall potential are dumb and unnecessary. I just also think one should develop routes with how they will be climbed in mind. A lot of people here are saying that stick clips are extremely common in their areas. If that's the case then developing with them in mind makes sense. I rarely see them at the crags I frequent and I think at a crag like that it wouldn't be wise, but it seems that's rather unusual. 

You're pretty much advocating that "more bolts" is preferable to all the perfectly reasonable options listed above, which isn't a sentiment that's gonna get a lot of support around these parts. Not every 10a needs to be a candidate for everyone's first 10a.

Firstly, I find it strange that you think I'm in favor of baby-fying routes. You're the one arguing for normalizing top roping the starts. I'm not arguing that the routes should have bolts every 8 feet the whole way up. Run it out if you want to if it's a clean fall, but a route with significant groundfall potential is lazy bolting and a hazard to the community.

Secondly, why isn't that a reasonable option? Many modern sport climbing crags do exactly that. It seems to be a very popular idea. The Owen's River Gorge community has gone so far as to  retrobolt your route if they think you've done a poor job of it and the guidebook has a warning to not bolt that way there or you can expect your route retrobolted and looked down upon. Loads of sport climbing places bolt how I'm talking about and it works out very well. I'm not calling for some revolution in bolting practices, I'm against lazy and dangerous bolting which unfortunately is predominately what I encounter when I go sport climbing. That's region-specific of course, though, and if I could climb 5.12 I wouldn't experience it even here since hard climbs are well-bolted here; developers choose to bolt climbs that aren't interesting to them poorly here and protect the climbs that they like well. So I wouldn't have anything to say if route developers around here put as much effort into 5.10s as they did 5.11s.

I think that unless guidebooks make it clear that many routes exist in that area that were intended to be climbed with stick clips that you can't expect people to understand that. If you were to do a poll of people sport climbing at Castle Rock State Park or some small Bay Area crag then you would find sport climbers that own stick clips to be in the minority, and you certainly would not find that sport climbers think that stick clips are intended.

Alexander Blum wrote:

Oh, a scary start is okay? What about a dangerous start? Is that okay?

if 5.12b is your limit, the first twenty feet are a long V4, and the landing is rocky... what makes more sense. This scenario is extremely common at many sport climbing areas.

a. Stick clipping a high first bolt. Simple, effective, requires a $50 tool (or a stick and some tape).

b. Three bolts in the first twenty feet. If you blow clip two or three you’ll deck and likely break an ankle.

If there are actually three bolts in 20 feet and there's groundfall potential you're either used to awful belaying or awful bolting. 

Also, in solution A, how many people actually use the stick clip? People keep on bringing up how many people own stick clips and how many you see at the crag. That isn't the metric to care about. If 30% of parties at a crag have stick clips you'll see a shit ton of them and yet they at that usage level they aren't anywhere near prevalent enough to assume that climbers will use them when developing a route. How many parties that climb any given route brought a stick clip or commonly use one? 

Because again, if you go with option A then you've now made the route more dangerous for all the people that don't own them, which is a factor everyone here seems happy to overlook. Why would you create anything without thought into how it will be used and taking that into consideration? If the vast majority of people own stick clips and there is an understanding between developers and climbers that stick clipping is not just OK but intended then this all makes sense. I don't think climbers think that around here at least. So this part is very region and community specific. If that's how things look in your area than option A sounds great. If it isn't then you've just made the route more dangerous for most people that will climb it. 

Further, I think the MP community self selects for people that think a lot about climbing and care about it a lot. There are an awful lot of sport climbers that just go sport climbing and don't think about it too much. Unless there's some education campaign or if guidebooks start talking about how stick clips are intended to be used I don't think it's reasonable to assume that climbers will know that. It certainly isn't a common idea around here (perhaps in Tahoe, it sounds like that area has a lot more stick clip usage).