An argument against stick clips

Jackson Reichwrote:

stick clipping on a sport climb takes away from often the most exiting part of a climb

The ride to the hospital?

Jackson Reichwrote:

stick clipping on a sport climb takes away from often the most exiting part of a climb

Guys, guys, he didn't say "exciting," he said "most EXITING part of the climb."  I think he's talking about exit moves; not sure how stickclipping takes away from exit moves, though.

I was right regardless  ;)

Something the young 'uns might not know, but recovering from an extremities fracture is a lot harder for older climbers (over 40). 

There's also the risk of non-union, mal-union, infection, etc.

don'tchuffonmewrote:

Well there's a huge difference between the first bolt being 10' off the ground and the first bolt being 20' off the ground.  So the distinction is important.  Quick physics/math quiz:  If the first bolt is 10' off the ground and the second bolt is 6' above the first and you fall while AT second bolt (NOT blowing the clip) vs. the first bolt being 20' off the ground with the second bolt being 6' above that and you fall at second bolt (NOT blowing the clip), with rope stretch and belayer give, in which scenario are you more likely to crater?  This isn't a trick question.  Stick clipping a higher first bolt and climbing is inherently safer than climbing up to a lower first bolt without having it clipped first.  Falling at or near the second bolt on a higher first bolt you are less likely to deck than falling at or near the second bolt.  This is painfully simple math and physics.  Like below the "101" level.  This verdict has been out for oh... idk, about 30-35 years ago.  You know, when those climbs were first bolted.  Why gumbies refuse to do (or are incapable of?) simple math and figure this toddler-level equation out for themselves is beyond me.  It's like you believe the hype about being a coward if you use a stick on the first bolt, but you don't want to say that because it makes you look like a tool, so you thought up some other half-assed explanation for your anti-stick stance.  Do you rap off beefy steel ring sport anchors too?  I hear that's inherently safer and that people that lower off sport climbs are "damaging fixed gear".  May want to start a thread about that moral quandary next.

The problem is that most sport climbers don't have or use stick clips. I've done route development. Knowing that more than half of climbers won't be bringing stick clips what then is the responsible and safe way for me to bolt the route? 

In reality routes often have difficult moves between good rest stances meaning that such a route if well bolted can be much safer since no one is likely to fall off a 5.7 jug on a 5.10b, so clipping the second or third bolt from there is quite safe. When you have a sustained route without good clipping stances suddenly it becomes a much trickier problem. It would be better to do a high first bolt but this is only safer for the climbers who own and regularly use stick clips, for the majority of climbers you've now made the climb decidedly more dangerous. 

It's a real dilemma for route developers. I think a lot of the bolting in NorCal is god awful (anything under 5.11 usually has half as many bolts as 5.11 and up routes) but I don't complain about high first bolts. I don't do it in my own routes for the reasons explained but it's a reasonable solution to a difficult problem. 

I don’t think a stick clip should be mandatory gear. I’ve been climbing for nearly 20 years, and I’ve never used a stick clip, nor have I hurt my ankles.

I know stuff happens, holds break, slip, etc. but I don’t think it should be expected to have one. I have no qualms with anyone that wants to increase safety on the start of a rock climb, because it’s their experience.

Likewise, I don’t think it’s fair to say that everything should be bolted from now on with the Intention of the first bolt or two being clipped with an extendo pole. Rock climbing is inherently dangerous :shrug: 

Do you’re thing to manage your risk, but this feels a bit like a nerf the world discussion to me. 

amariuswrote:

1st the disclosure - this story is real, and comes for prime gumby crag, The Orange Oswald wall.

A climber was getting on Orange Oswald, a really nice 10a at NRG/Summersville
I tell her - I find the opening sequence a bit tricky, and the holds are getting polished, here is stick clip just to make it safer ( some bending of truth to encourage her to use the stick)

What a great route!  Yes, the opening sequence is tricky.  Routes (and areas) like this is what I have in mind.  A stick clip and humility could have saved her sprains, but so could have a lower placed bolt.  I had "Mrs. Fields Follies" (and Narcissist) in mind when making the OP.  The first bolt is higher than the Trango Beta Stick (its telescoping).  To clip the first bolt on this route you have to climb an offwidth crack, put your lightest friend on your shoulders and have them clip, or bring a #5(?) cam...  

The point is, stick clips shouldn't be needed in most cases if the bolting was done properly.  Armchair climbers...  I know, there are a number of areas where proper bolting is done for sport crags and I don't want to operationally define "proper" (baiting the trolls).

amariuswrote:

1st the disclosure - this story is real, and comes for prime gumby crag, The Orange Oswald wall.

A climber was getting on Orange Oswald, a really nice 10a at NRG/Summersville
I tell her - I find the opening sequence a bit tricky, and the holds are getting polished, here is stick clip just to make it safer ( some bending of truth to encourage her to use the stick)
She politely declines
She then falls, and twists her ankle
She is reminded that the stick clip is still available
She climbs again, falls again... 

Orange Oswald was the route that persuaded me I should buy a stick clip. Great route.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

The problem is that most sport climbers don't have or use stick clips.

Beg to differ.  First, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE that I know that regularly climbs 5.11a and up has and uses stick clips and/or uses actual sticks to clip high first bolts.  

 I've done route development. Knowing that more than half of climbers won't be bringing stick clips what then is the responsible and safe way for me to bolt the route? 

The responsible thing to do would be to train people to use stick clips.  It's not hard, and because of the dynamics and the difference between low first bolts and high first bolts, if you want to minimize impact (i.e. use fewer bolts, put fewer holes in the rock, etc.) then you make the first bolt high.  Other than that, if you want to keep people off the deck, you literally have to put the first bolt at about 8 or 9 feet, the second at 3 feet above that and then incrementally increase the distance between bolts as the route goes up.  There's a problem with this a lot of times though, and that's stances.  I've been on routes that were "hard" for me, and that were grid bolted with "safety" in mind, and they were fucking awful.  Not bolting at stances and using some kind of arbitrary "safe" distance to bolt means that the "developer" really isn't one, or at least a very good one.  A superclip or spring loaded clamp on a stick lasts a long time, doesn't put extra holes in the rock that will eventually have to be maintained by another party, and referencing the physics equation I mentioned earlier, really is the best solution with regard to safety immediately off the deck.  

It's a sad state of affairs when ignorance and bravado get in the way of safety, and people that either don't know about stick clips or refuse to use them because they're applying some sort of trad climbing ethic to sport climbing have to be catered to like defenseless babies unable to think for themselves.

In reality routes often have difficult moves between good rest stances meaning that such a route if well bolted can be much safer since no one is likely to fall off a 5.7 jug on a 5.10b, so clipping the second or third bolt from there is quite safe.

Idk what this has to do with anything, but ok.

 When you have a sustained route without good clipping stances suddenly it becomes a much trickier problem. It would be better to do a high first bolt but this is only safer for the climbers who own and regularly use stick clips, for the majority of climbers you've now made the climb decidedly more dangerous.

Nope.  The climber has made it more dangerous by not knowing methods that have been in use for roughly 35-40 years that will keep them off the deck. Stop placating and coddling babies that want the outside to be the same thing as the gym.

 

It's a real dilemma for route developers.

Nope.  It's not.

 I think a lot of the bolting in NorCal is god awful (anything under 5.11 usually has half as many bolts as 5.11 and up routes) but I don't complain about high first bolts. I don't do it in my own routes for the reasons explained but it's a reasonable solution to a difficult problem. 

If you're putting a route up, do it in your style.  That's fine.  And I commend you for putting your own $$ up to develop sport routes that others can enjoy.  But seriously folks, we have to get away from babying every nincompoop that just got their first harness and PAS from REI, and wants everything to be ultra safe and spoon fed to them.  This isn't fucking badminton.  And it's not a real problem.   It's rock climbing.  Removing the danger and risk completely dilutes it to some bullshit fitness craze that only Insta models want to engage in.  Aren't people sick of that yet?

Gumby Kingwrote:

What a great route!  Yes, the opening sequence is tricky.  Routes (and areas) like this is what I have in mind.  A stick clip and humility could have saved her sprains, but so could have a lower placed bolt.  I had "Mrs. Fields Follies" (and Narcissist) in mind when making the OP.  The first bolt is higher than the Trango Beta Stick (its telescoping).  To clip the first bolt on this route you have to climb an offwidth crack, put your lightest friend on your shoulders and have them clip, or bring a #5(?) cam...  

The point is, stick clips shouldn't be needed in most cases if the bolting was done properly.  Armchair climbers...  I know, there are a number of areas where proper bolting is done for sport crags and I don't want to operationally define "proper" (baiting the trolls).

Translation:  I can't be expected to keep myself safe and do minimal research on methods that have been in use for half a century, so I'd rather put more holes in a finite resource because I want my experience to be super safe.  Got it.  What an treasure you are to modern climbing.

don'tchuffonmewrote:

What an treasure you are to modern climbing.

Gumby Gold:

#DropsMic

How many people in this thread have even bolted a route?

Sharma put in a low bolt just to keep the rope out of his way 

Jay Crewwrote:

How many people in this thread have even bolted a route?

I've put up 35 or 40 pitches between 2004 and 2020, a handful of them 11a and up, so the issue of clipping holds/stances and where to bolt has definitely come up. Some were all gear, a couple are all sport, the majority are a mix of bolts and gear. In most cases I rapped in at some point, and once I had the chance to pre-inspect, it seemed "fair" to place enough bolts to keep the route from being needlessly dangerous as it seems lame and unfair to rap bolt an R or X rated route. (Different issue, but related)

I've never taken stick clips into consideration when developing. I never used a stick clip on any of those routes when I climbed them. Not because i'm anti stick clip, but because I personally don't use them and therefore don't factor them into the "development equation." When you climb someone else's route, you need to accept you are entering their world and you need to accept the route as it is, which may or may not be as safe as you'd like. Just like reading a book or watching a movie where you accept someone else's vision and perspective, but you are always free to bail for any reason at all. Or just like you choose to drive or not drive on a certain road under certain weather conditions.

TLDR - route developers shouldn't be expected to design an experience for other people's needs. If you don't like the route's safety or lack thereof, don't climb it. If you want to stick clip my route, have at it. (This all assumes that the FA party has provided an accurate and fair description of the route and its relative safely)

Jay Crewwrote:

How many people in this thread have even bolted a route?

I've gone bolt to bolt, does that count? 

How many people in this thread have even bolted a route?

4!

No wait... 7!

Um, 8?

This has been argued so many times...I went to RRG last fall and was super glad to have a stick clip, because the bottom of many of the popular routes is polished. Many of the route developers put the first bolt up high to encourage the use of a stick clip. It makes so much sense I cannot see any real reason NOT to use one at RRG. I also trad climbed at the Fortress Wall. And my first piece was usually lower than the first bolt on the sport climbs.  

God i love sport climbing(ers)

Crag Catwrote:

Bolting for the use of stick clips is similar to other localized style/ethics consensus decisions. One of my local crags has a similar start/landing as the climb on the right. IMO "properly" bolting this start means it's done for using a stick clip. Most falls have the potential to mess up your ankle. I've overheard nearby teams at my local crag discussing using a stick clip and one guy is like "you're a pussy to cheat with a stick clip" and I laugh and say "Actually that climb was bolted for using a stick clip. Climb it how you want but no one is cheating when they do it how it was intended".

A crag with a flat dirt landing and easy climbing down low is a different story. But again for me sport climbing the challenge/fun is usually how hard can I climb, not do I want the mental challenge having a strong lead head.

don'tchuffonmewrote:

Beg to differ.  First, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE that I know that regularly climbs 5.11a and up has and uses stick clips and/or uses actual sticks to clip high first bolts.  

The responsible thing to do would be to train people to use stick clips.  It's not hard, and because of the dynamics and the difference between low first bolts and high first bolts, if you want to minimize impact (i.e. use fewer bolts, put fewer holes in the rock, etc.) then you make the first bolt high.  Other than that, if you want to keep people off the deck, you literally have to put the first bolt at about 8 or 9 feet, the second at 3 feet above that and then incrementally increase the distance between bolts as the route goes up.  There's a problem with this a lot of times though, and that's stances.  I've been on routes that were "hard" for me, and that were grid bolted with "safety" in mind, and they were fucking awful.  Not bolting at stances and using some kind of arbitrary "safe" distance to bolt means that the "developer" really isn't one, or at least a very good one.  A superclip or spring loaded clamp on a stick lasts a long time, doesn't put extra holes in the rock that will eventually have to be maintained by another party, and referencing the physics equation I mentioned earlier, really is the best solution with regard to safety immediately off the deck.  

It's a sad state of affairs when ignorance and bravado get in the way of safety, and people that either don't know about stick clips or refuse to use them because they're applying some sort of trad climbing ethic to sport climbing have to be catered to like defenseless babies unable to think for themselves.

Idk what this has to do with anything, but ok.

Nope.  The climber has made it more dangerous by not knowing methods that have been in use for roughly 35-40 years that will keep them off the deck. Stop placating and coddling babies that want the outside to be the same thing as the gym.

Nope.  It's not.

If you're putting a route up, do it in your style.  That's fine.  And I commend you for putting your own $$ up to develop sport routes that others can enjoy.  But seriously folks, we have to get away from babying every nincompoop that just got their first harness and PAS from REI, and wants everything to be ultra safe and spoon fed to them.  This isn't fucking badminton.  And it's not a real problem.   It's rock climbing.  Removing the danger and risk completely dilutes it to some bullshit fitness craze that only Insta models want to engage in.  Aren't people sick of that yet?

I don't think it's placating babies. A large part of the idea of sport climbing is that it's a safer alternative. There is no reason for climbers to be free soloing 20 to 30 feet off the ground because of bad bolting, which is not uncommon around me, especially on routes put up in the 70s and 80s and on moderates. Bolting routes safely even without stick clips in mind is a very easy thing to do and requires not very much more thought, time, or bolts. Under modern climbing norms it is the right of the FA to put up the route how they want. If you want to put up a poorly-bolted groundfall-fest 5.9 (as most are around me) then feel free to do so, but then the rest of the community is in their right to think that such route developers are twats. 

Good route development isn't hard and it isn't unreasonable to want that to be the norm. There are plenty of historic areas and areas with an adventure ethic that proudly do not have very safe bolting and that's fun and interesting and fine. But if you just have some dinky local crag or a modern sport area with lower off anchors and everything then why the fuck do that?

Saying that climbers should be using stick clips solves nothing. Most still don't. If you design your route with stick clips in mind it will mostly get climbed without them. Saying that people ought to behave in a certain way does nothing to change the reality we find ourselves in. I really couldn't disagree more with your view. Reality is reality and regardless of what you personally think climbers should or should not do has no effect on it. I will bolt my routes based off of how they will actually be climbed, not how I think people should or shouldn't climb them. 

Edit to add: The bad landings argument and an entire area stating that stick clips ought to be intended is really interesting and I think really makes a difference. However I still don't think it's reasonable to put up a route in an area where most routes are not designed with stick clips in mind and then expect that people will use stick clips on your route. Most of them won't.