Home Wall - Kicker or No Kicker?

Do a kicker but don't make it too tall. You really don't need more than two rows of jibs for feet.

No kicker = more actual climbing.

if your concernEd about making the start harder due to the lack of a kicker then use that plywood for a couple small volumes or use some big foot holds down low 

The steeper your wall, the better it is to have a kicker. A more shallow wall may not need one. my wall is somewhere around 36-38*, and I put on a 6” kicker, enough for one row of feet. I’m pretty happy that I put it on and I think starts would be pretty hard without it.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

No kicker = more actual climbing.

Not true.  

As I said above, having a kicker allows you to move your feet without having to move your hands up, giving you more moves at the bottom of the wall. You can traverse the entire wall with your feet on the kicker, then go up the other way on a diagonal, doubling the number of moves. Thus your problems can be several moves longer = more actual climbing.

For example, I have several problems set where I start in a backstep with my hands matched on the starting jug.  I then reach for a hold to the side that's at the same height, and walk my feet through into another backstep on the other side.  You can't do that on a steep wall without a kicker because your feet get wedged between the floor and the wall, which limits the type of moves you can do near the bottom.

John Byrneswrote:

Not true.  

As I said above, having a kicker allows you to move your feet without having to move your hands up, giving you more moves at the bottom of the wall. You can traverse the entire wall with your feet on the kicker, then go up the other way on a diagonal, doubling the number of moves. Thus your problems can be several moves longer = more actual climbing.

For example, I have several problems set where I start in a backstep with my hands matched on the starting jug.  I then reach for a hold to the side that's at the same height, and walk my feet through into another backstep on the other side.  You can't do that on a steep wall without a kicker because your feet get wedged between the floor and the wall, which limits the type of moves you can do near the bottom.

A.) This would be true mostly of walls steeper than 40°. Any walls less vertical than that will not have any issues. My wall is 50° with a 2x4 as it’s kicker and I rarely have any issues “wedging” my feet in any capacity.

B.) As I said above, you can solve this issue by:

• Adding larger feet Low on the wall
• Volumes that act as a kicker and more versatility
• Getting stronger (read: by bypassing a kicker in the form or larger feet or volumes you will gain more tension 

Additionally, I suspect, by having an extra 6”-24” (depending on the size of the intended kicker) of wall that can be utilized by both hands and feet you can then forego backsteps as their will be more ‘wall’ to climb and do the same amount of moves and climbing without back stepping/stepping through immediately off the ground  

I’m not trying to argue, I just think it needs pointed out that it depends on the person and their is no one correct answer. I see the advantage of a kicker (and used one on my previous wall), but for me personally I can utilize all of those same advantages, for what I want, by adding large feet and volumes in place of a kicker.  

edit to add: as others have also mentioned it is MUCH easier to add a kicker retroactively as opposed to the opposite. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

A.) This would be true mostly of walls steeper than 40°. Any walls less vertical than that will not have any issues. 

Yes, I agree.  I should have made this more clear.

My wall is 50° with a 2x4 as it’s kicker and I rarely have any issues “wedging” my feet in any capacity.

I once bouldered on a 45 degree wall without a kicker.   The starting hand-hold would be low, and since I'm tall, starting in a backstep position is better.  But after one hand move, I often want to move into a frog position but my feet would wedge or get caught as I tried to move it.  The torque on my ankle and knees was a bit scary when thinking of falling when my feet couldn't move.   And even if I was starting in a frog position and kept it, as you move up your heels want to move away from the wall... hitting the floor and possibly wedging again.  

I have a 33 degree system wall without a kicker.  Next to the starting footholds there are black arcs on the floor where my heels touch and my foot rotates as I go up.   If it were any steeper, my feet would wedge.

B.) As I said above, you can solve this issue by:

• Adding larger feet Low on the wall

Doesn't help, and how would you mount them?  You'd have to dig a hole in the floor to get the wrench or screw driver in there.

• Volumes that act as a kicker and more versatility

And just how do you fit a large volume in such a tiny space?  And again, how would you get a tool in there to attach it?

• Getting stronger (read: by bypassing a kicker in the form or larger feet or volumes you will gain more tension 

I disagree.  One does not follow the other.

Additionally, I suspect, by having an extra 6”-24” (depending on the size of the intended kicker) of wall that can be utilized by both hands and feet you can then forego backsteps as their will be more ‘wall’ to climb and do the same amount of moves and climbing without back stepping/stepping through immediately off the ground  

I disagree again.  Completely.   Unless you have size 14 feet, a 12" kicker is adequate.  You can put the starting holds at the same distance from the floor regardless of kicker or no kicker, so your claim of "more wall" isn't true.  And backstepping is a good technique to practice, not "forego".  

I’m not trying to argue, 

Fail.   

I just think it needs pointed out that it depends on the person and their is no one correct answer. I see the advantage of a kicker (and used one on my previous wall), but for me personally I can utilize all of those same advantages, for what I want, by adding large feet and volumes in place of a kicker.  

...for what I want... Right. Not necessarily what anyone else wants. Seeing how a kicker is, and has been, recommended for decades, seems like more people want something you don't.

John Byrneswrote:

Yes, I agree.  I should have made this more clear.

I once bouldered on a 45 degree wall without a kicker.   The starting hand-hold would be low, and since I'm tall, starting in a backstep position is better.  But after one hand move, I often want to move into a frog position but my feet would wedge or get caught as I tried to move it.  The torque on my ankle and knees was a bit scary when thinking of falling when my feet couldn't move.   And even if I was starting in a frog position and kept it, as you move up your heels want to move away from the wall... hitting the floor and possibly wedging again.  

I have a 33 degree system wall without a kicker.  Next to the starting footholds there are black arcs on the floor where my heels touch and my foot rotates as I go up.   If it were any steeper, my feet would wedge.

Doesn't help, and how would you mount them?  You'd have to dig a hole in the floor to get the wrench or screw driver in there.

And just how do you fit a large volume in such a tiny space?  And again, how would you get a tool in there to attach it?

I disagree.  One does not follow the other.

I disagree again.  Completely.   Unless you have size 14 feet, a 12" kicker is adequate.  You can put the starting holds at the same distance from the floor regardless of kicker or no kicker, so your claim of "more wall" isn't true.  And backstepping is a good technique to practice, not "forego".  

Fail.   

...for what I want... Right. Not necessarily what anyone else wants. Seeing how a kicker is, and has been, recommended for decades, seems like more people want something you don't.

Again somehow I, magically, figured out how to put good feet 4” off the ground on my 50° wall with volumes as well. Thus addressing the most of the entire first part of your post. I might also recommend different technique so you don’t keep “torquing” yo shit. Seems painful    

Secondly, I still don’t view this as an argument, as you seem to, but rather a good discussion of the pros and cons of a kicker.

Thirdly, go into any commercial gym built in the last 5 years and the VAST majority of their bouldering walls will not have a kicker or vertical footboard. Trends change, often for the better, I really hope you aren’t still wearing decades old Lycra.

Finally, and very importantly, you can always add a kicker retroactively. Besides the OP did not add a kicker. Thusly....I win, you lose. Try again next time   

I did not read all the comments above, so i may be echoing info that has already been stated. I like the kicker, it makes sit starting more natural, & gives a bit of clearance for installing the lowest rows of holds. Not sure if you already built your wall, but i would consider going steeper than 30, especially with 9'9" ceiling. But of course this is solely based on preference.

Ive got 2 walls, 1 is 50 degrees with a 24" kick board, the other is 15 degrees with no kickboard. Sit starting on the 50 is awesome & feels natural. Sit starting on the 15 is less fun for sure. 1 other consideration/lesson learned for me is I would not do T nuts in my kick board next time as i prefer the screw on feet 

Hope this helps!

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Thirdly, go into any commercial gym built in the last 5 years and the VAST majority of their bouldering walls will not have a kicker or vertical footboard. Trends change, often for the better, I really hope you aren’t still wearing decades old Lycra.

Finally, and very importantly, you can always add a kicker retroactively. Besides the OP did not add a kicker. Thusly....I win, you lose. Try again next time   

Which would those be? All 3 of the Movement gyms have them (in the caves and other steep starts) as far as I can remember. Evo Louisville has it in the steep cave. Of course you can add a kicker later, but then you could've built the board closer to the wall if you'd done that to start with.

rebootwrote:

Which would those be? All 3 of the Movement gyms have them (in the caves and other steep starts) as far as I can remember. Evo Louisville has it in the steep cave. Of course you can add a kicker later, but then you could've built the board closer to the wall if you'd done that to start with.

Movement has them on about 1/2 of their walls if I remember right. Most newer bouldering walls are also taller and more curved so that wasn’t the best example on my part. The point I was trying to make was that gyms today are completely different and not even comparable to how they were built decades ago. Even the kickers on the walltopia walls are nothing like a kicker you would build on a garage woody as they are often concave, curved, or have varying heights depending on where you are on the wall. I see the benefit of a kicker, I just wouldn’t do it on a home wall (especially if you are building a wall less than 10’) and I think going without a kicker will make you stronger as you will need more tension, and often hip mobility. I know there are plenty but I can’t think of many boulders that have a vertical “kicker” like feature off the top of my head. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

Hey JT! Just wanted to say I love how you stay calm and keep it civil (also a little tongue in cheek)--a much needed approach in today's world. Also I appreciate that you make slight jabs at people who criticize bouldering on MP!  As an aide the boulderfield in sacramento has a kicker for their moonboard, tension board and spray board, if I remember correctly--its been since I think mid march that I have been in there (hence the wall above with the kicker :)

Todd

Thanks, really I’m just bored often so I have time to delete and edit my mean comments 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Thusly....I win, you lose. Try again next time   

So you just declare victory and therefore you've won?     I didn't realize I was dealing with a child.

John Byrneswrote:

So you just declare victory and therefore you've won?     I didn't realize I was dealing with a child.

Hey man, I don’t make the rules around these parts. Be mad at the OP, not me. You need to stop taking these mountain project conversations so seriously if you’re actually getting all hot and bothered, both of us provided very valid reasons for our stance. 

How about those new Tension 2.0 and grasshopper boards?   

Kicker, so you can crawl down in deeper and/or sideways and get more climbing out of your wall. Can add two or more moves easily.