New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #12

Dallas Rwrote:

Or the day you are approaching the bottom and notice that while one end of the rope is coiled beautifully on the ground the other is about twenty or so feet off the ground.  Knot off the short end and feed the long end through as if you are lowering a climber, which you are.  This is the day before you buy your first bi-colored rope...

If you already have safety knots on your rappel rope ends it should not matter. Just hit the knot on the uneven end and keep descending on the other rope. If you DON'T have safety knots on your rappel and catch this problem in time, well, you'll remember to knot the rope next time almost certainly. 

Dallas, the number one rappelling accident is simply rappelling off the end or ends of the rope because there was no stopper knot. 

When I do guides' certification exams (AMGA Single Pitch Instructor), if the candidate rappels without stopper knots (even if there is plenty of rope on the ground) I score that as "marginal" since it shows me that they're not in the habit of tying stopper knots every time as their default. Same with toproping without a closed system.

It feels good to have chalk on my hands again!

Third day back climbing yesterday. 

Locker and Tyler Gilson were my partners.

Did some leading myself yesterday and Locker has the photos if he decides to post.

Tyler leading.

Bob, Senor - Yup properly tied stopper knots are good.  

But if I ever hit a stopper knot I will consider that a major failure.  How can you not maintain awareness of your remaining rope while rapping?  To me it would be like trying to drive with blinders on.  

Bob Gaineswrote:

Dallas, the number one rappelling accident is simply rappelling off the end or ends of the rope because there was no stopper knot. 

When I do guides' certification exams (AMGA Single Pitch Instructor), if the candidate rappels without stopper knots (even if there is plenty of rope on the ground) I score that as "marginal" since it shows me that they're not in the habit of tying stopper knots every time as their default. Same with toproping without a closed system.

Bob, do you have any thoughts about the knots themselves?  Not infrequently, I see people tie really quite loose figure-eights, which I think stand a chance of coming untied before they're called on.   I've also seen people tie overhand loops, which to my mind leaves extra stuff to hang up (and I've had knots hang up as it is).

When I'm not being marginal, I've been tying barrel knots (i.e. a half of a double fisherman's knot). Sometimes with more than two turns. Those of us who were around at the time of Jim Madsen's tragic accident know that it is conceivable that some knots could pass through a rap device. (He was using carabiner brakes, which have a much larger rope path than any modern plaquette.)

I gotta admit I’m relieved to know that I have no idea what a slab or face climb is.  

What I love is how on a long day on slab those first few routes you’re praying for jugs.  Later on there’s gratitude for nubs and crystals.  By the end of the day you’re cruising up a whole bunch of slick nothing... and not minding it!

A friend took this pic of me pulling down on something tiny.  And what do we call the bottom picture... face or slab?  All I know is there’s a real nice place for a foot. 

Lori Milaswrote:

I gotta admit I’m relieved to know that I have no idea what a slab or face climb is.  

What I love is how on a long day on slab those first few routes you’re praying for jugs.  Later on there’s gratitude for nubs and crystals.  By the end of the day you’re cruising up a whole bunch of slick nothing... and not minding it!

A friend took this pic of me pulling down on something tiny.  And what do we call the bottom picture... face or slab?  All I know is there’s a real nice place for a foot. 

Lori!  Pure slab, yes  Pure face, yes, but a lot of what I've done in Josh, The Valley, and elsewhere is often a combination of both.

rgoldwrote:

Bob, do you have any thoughts about the knots themselves?  Not infrequently, I see people tie really quite loose figure-eights, which I think stand a chance of coming untied before they're called on.   I've also seen people tie overhand loops, which to my mind leaves extra stuff to hang up (and I've had knots hang up as it is).

When I'm not being marginal, I've been tying barrel knots (i.e. a half of a double fisherman's knot). Sometimes with more than two turns. Those of us who were around at the time of Jim Madsen's tragic accident know that it is conceivable that some knots could pass through a rap device. (He was using carabiner brakes, which have a much larger rope path than any modern plaquette.)

What I call a "stopper knot" is half a triple fisherman's. What I emphasize when I teach it is to leave a long tail and really crank it tight, as a half-assed tied stopper knot with no tail can also come untied. Depending on the rope diameter, a stopper knot might not jam in a figure-eight descending ring, which, although rarely used now days is still a consideration to mention, as a bulkier knot may be required.

Dallas wrote: "But if I ever hit a stopper knot I will consider that a major failure."

If I forget to tie a stopper knot I consider that a major failure.

On the subject of auto locks, I personally like the Sterling Hollow Block. It grabs really well. As a loop, I think it is rated to about 13kn so I have even used it a couple of times to extend pro when I have run out of slings/draws, although that isn’t what it was really designed for.

Reading rgold’s mention of Jim Madsen sent me browsing back through a SuperTopo thread on his death. I’m currently reading a biography of Stimson Bullitt (thanks Dallas!). Loving history and lore around climbing it does make me wonder how it must feel to eavesdrop on threads like this, and witness the throngs of new climbers who show up green and unaware—with the fancy new equipment and breathless stories of that 5.5 chimney (like I climbed today). 

We had a friend here on MP who loved to say “I’ve done more, better, harder...” and no doubt he’s right. Some of us are learning right now right here what seems idiotic and ridiculous to him. (Case in point, what’s a figure 8 descending ring? And I’ll revisit the half triple fisherman’s)

Senor mentioned this time of life as the opportunity for a second childhood.  It is that for me.  I hope you veteran climbers will share pictures and stories from your first childhoods.  Personally I wish I could do a better job out there on those beautiful rocks.  Those incredible routes deserve (and have had) better.  But I appreciate your generosity of spirit and patience with those of us just getting out there now.  And all the instruction and coaching we can hold.

We had a friend here on MP who loved to say “I’ve done more, better, harder...” and no doubt he’s right. Some of us are learning right now right here what seems idiotic and ridiculous to him. (Case in point, what’s a figure 8 descending ring? And I’ll revisit the half triple fisherman’s)

Awesome photo!  Love it.

And man, that quote you said above (maybe b/c it is taken out of context?) sounds cocky as hell and not like anything in this forum.  I've really come to Alex Lowe's idea of the best climber over the years: it's all about the fun.

And now you're making me feel old as all I ever used for rapping in the 80's and 90's was a Figure 8 descender!

;)

after having the wind blow my ropes into nasty places several times I only tie stopper knotts  in the situations where I feel i need them.  Big long rappels with unknown destination. Top roping when any doubt about rope length.. guess I don't have to worry about being a guide :)  I do however use my auto block and pay attention every single time. 

budmanwrote:

Lori!  Pure slab, yes  Pure face, yes, but a lot of what I've done in Josh, The Valley, and elsewhere is often a combination of both.

That would be a slab in my book. And Dragons, the La Pedriza slab in the McHaffie does seem to be a super sustained edging slab. A couple friction moves but not many. 

Buck Rogerswrote:

Awesome photo!  Love it.

And man, that quote you said above (maybe b/c it is taken out of context?) sounds cocky as hell and not like anything in this forum.  I've really come to Alex Lowe's idea of the best climber over the years: it's all about the fun.

And now you're making me feel old as all I ever used for rapping in the 80's and 90's was a Figure 8 descender!

;)

Ummm... I was actually being nice.     He's said much worse. And actually, he doesn't mean harm by it.  He's a blurter...he says whatever the hell he thinks--and I have wondered if he is just saying what others are too nice to say.    

In hindsight I guess my little post yesterday was a round-about way of again saying 'thank you' to all of you climbers, the well-known veterans and the lessser-knowns, who contribute so much love and stoke and actual technical coaching to those of us who lag far behind.   I might not be so generous in other venues.

This place is loaded with history, and I know so little of it.  I love it when Dwain adds in a story, or Randy or Guy, Bob... and that's just my little corner of the planet right now.  And then I happen upon a new place (to me) and discover it all over again.  

My daughter just completed a 5-day journey to Mt. Shasta.  Her family is not happy about her new wanderlust... this is a  topic for us 'over 50' people:  we don't have to leave small children or angry spouses behind to climb.  Anyway... she's been preparing for months, doing high-altitude hikes with her backpack, learning rope technique with the SAR team, etc.  This trip was all about ice crevassing (is that a word?)--we actually sent a message to each other, her just as she summitted Shasta, me perched on the Sentinel.  It felt pretty cool.  I'll be seeing her tomorrow, it's been a month or more... she'll want to share all about her trip and more pictures and stories.  

And then I'll tell her about my 20' 5.5.  

I know there's some ego in this, and the one thing rgold has repeated so many times is to just have fun.  Accept where you are. Enjoy the journey.    That may be the hardest part of climbing, after all. 

Buck Rogerswrote:

And now you're making me feel old as all I ever used for rapping in the 80's and 90's was a Figure 8 descender!

;)

Buck

I had to laugh about the figure 8 belay/rap device. I used to use them a lot also. They never wear out. I still have 4 of them. See photo. About 2 years ago, I used an old stitch plate to belay to freak out the younger climbers. They had no idea of what it was and what I was doing. It still works also.

John

Mark Orsagwrote:

That would be a slab in my book. And Dragons, the La Pedriza slab in the McHaffie does seem to be a super sustained edging slab. A couple friction moves but not many. 

Call it what you want.  When your climbing slab at your grade on lead, at least for me, your not complaining about that less than vertical edge because it's like a jug.

Oldtradguywrote:

Buck

I had to laugh about the figure 8 belay/rap device. I used to use them a lot also. They never wear out. I still have 4 of them. See photo. About 2 years ago, I used an old stitch plate to belay to freak out the younger climbers. They had no idea of what it was and what I was doing. It still works also.

John

I still carry my old figure 8 on a lot of my climbs - you know, just in case.  Besides, I'm not sure what I'd do if I didn't hear it making the appropriate jangling noise (lots of you will remember that distinct sound, I'm sure).  I tried to use my stitch plate at my local gym, but since no one there had any idea what it was, that was a no-go.

My son prefers a figure 8 over an ATC to rappel - he's 75 lbs dripping wet, and has trouble getting the rope to even move through an ATC. His rappels take forever - at least I don't have to worry about uncontrolled descents!

Brian

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

after having the wind blow my ropes into nasty places several times I only tie stopper knotts  in the situations where I feel i need them.  Big long rappels with unknown destination. Top roping when any doubt about rope length.. guess I don't have to worry about being a guide :)  I do however use my auto block and pay attention every single time. 

Hi Nick,

In windy conditions, one technique to prevent your rope blowing off to the side and snagging is to butterfly each half of the rope, then clip each half into a sling at each hip. Feeds out nicely as you rap down. 

As far as TRing goes, closing the system is a safety habit. If you don't do it every time, then you haven't developed the habit. Many experienced climbers have been dropped when the rope passed through a belay device, an accident that's easily preventable.

I've been counseled that when I'm teaching, I shouldn't use the words "always" or "never," but in regard to rappelling I often say "always tie a stopper knot unless there is a compelling reason not to." As far as toproping is concerned, I teach "always close the system."

Bob Gaineswrote:

Hi Nick,

In windy conditions, one technique to prevent your rope blowing off to the side and snagging is to butterfly each half of the rope, then clip each half into a sling at each hip. Feeds out nicely as you rap down. 

As far as TRing goes, closing the system is a safety habit. If you don't do it every time, then you haven't developed the habit. Many experienced climbers have been dropped when the rope passed through a belay device, an accident that's easily preventable.

I've been counseled that when I'm teaching, I shouldn't use the words "always" or "never," but in regard to rappelling I often say "always tie a stopper knot unless there is a compelling reason not to." As far as toproping is concerned, I teach "always close the system."

Bob, “closing the system” when TRing is stopper knot on both ends of the top rope?