A typical day out?

Are beginners this clueless?
 Yeah, we all were.

I don't know about this. I wasn't like this. I don't know if things have gotten worse, or we're just seeing more people so we see more problems. It does seem more people don't see climbing as an "extreme" sport. They just see it as a regular sport like skiing. Climbing is more akin to sky diving IMO, where if you fuck up and you could easily die, so you have to take it seriously all the time.

Personally as a beginner I belayed with great care and religiously did my double checks. Today after decades of experiences I still belay with great care. My double checks have gone from: on belay?, belay on., climbing?, climb on. To: you good? Yup, you good? Yup. But I still do them. If anything I climbed with more risk with more experience e.g. simul-climbing, R rated climbs. But I knew what I was getting into and doing. I guess that's the difference.

BITD I saw people who either didn't know what they were doing or didn't care. Same as today.

Mark Hudonwrote:
I can’t figure it out. Is this the common beginner experience? Are beginners this clueless? Do beginners feel no desire to gain experience, establish a base of skill and work up the grades? Are beginners so unaware of the strength of two, modern 3/8” bolts that everything needs to be “equalized”? Do climbers who lack such basic understanding really think that they are going to be able to use their rescue gear to rescue anyone?

This kind of beginner experience seems to be increasingly common. I'd guess that it's largely a consequence of two things: The challenge of finding a mentor now when it's far easier to make plans with the person you just took "Anchors 101" with at your local gym than it is to find someone knowledgeable and willing to take you out. And the likelihood that most climbers with the knowledge and experience to make a good mentor would rather spend their time climbing with long-established partners. With the increased popularity of climbing, too, we're going to see more people who are more concerned about image or ego than a learning experience. At the same time, there seems to be a growing and vocal number who insist that there's only one safe way to do things (eg fully equalized anchor on 2 solid bolts with multiple redundancies; never TR from fixed gear)--you'd hope that this would encourage new climbers to seek knowledge from multiple sources, including more experienced climbers, but this could also be a pretty strong disincentive!

Gloweringwrote: I don't know about this. I wasn't like this. I don't know if things have gotten worse, or we're just seeing more people so we see more problems. It does seem more people don't see climbing as an "extreme" sport. They just see it as a regular sport like skiing. Climbing is more akin to sky diving IMO, where if you fuck up and you could easily die, so you have to take it seriously all the time.

Personally as a beginner I belayed with great care and religiously did my double checks. Today after decades of experiences I still belay with great care. My double checks have gone from: on belay?, belay on., climbing?, climb on. To: you good? Yup, you good? Yup. But I still do them. If anything I climbed with more risk with more experience e.g. simul-climbing, R rated climbs. But I knew what I was getting into and doing. I guess that's the difference.

BITD I saw people who either didn't know what they were doing or didn't care. Same as today.

These are good points. I just meant we all have to learn at some point, and before we learn, we are clueless. Sounds like you had better instruction or mentoring to get you focused and up to speed than these folks.

I think you're right that too many new climbers are too casual about the possible dangers of climbing done wrong. Blame gyms, YouTube, etc. for making climbing feel so accessible. I think also the massive amounts of information and conflicting opinions don't help. In some ways only have a few more or less authoritative sources like Freedom of the Hills was probably helpful.

I learned from mentors with a focus on safety so belay safety was not an issue for me, but I made plenty of gumby mistakes in my time. On one memorable occasion, I tried to follow a 3-pitch climb at my limit while carrying a large daypack with my entire gleaming new trad rack inside. My logic was that it would be good training to carry the weight in preparation for leading. Oof. Luckily there was another party at the base that was happy to untie my pack after my partner figured out why I was having such a difficult time and lowered the pack down from the P1 anchor.

L Kapwrote:

Sounds like you had better instruction or mentoring to get you focused and up to speed than these folks.

 In some ways only have a few more or less authoritative sources like Freedom of the Hills was probably helpful.

Actually I was mostly self taught. I climbed a couple of times with some friends of friends, but it was just for fun, they didn't go over stuff with me. Then I read Freedom of the Hills. I top roped, then I led sport climbs. I bought all my trad gear and got familiar with it, then I took a two day AMGA certified lead course. I always felt I was responsible for my own safety, and I always felt like I was ready for the step I was taking. I have since mentored about a half dozen people, and they in turn have mentored about another half dozen people.

It may be worse to have a poor/complacent mentor than none at all.

Mark Hudonwrote: I’m out climbing at a popular area an area I know quite well. There are three guys close by who are climbing some 5.7/5.8 routes.

They are done with their last route and one of them suggests stringing a top rope on a nearby 5.11a arete. The anchor on top of the arete is two modern bolts with chains and those ClimbTech hooks on them that would take several hundred years of top roping to wear out. Nevertheless, he “equalizes” the bolts and runs their rope though double, opposing locking biners.

One of the climbers seems to be a rank beginner and they all have been standing around in their climbing shoes for as long as I’ve been there, 30 minutes or so.

The one most experienced looking guy, wearing a helmet, goes up with the least experienced looking guy “belaying” him. 10 feet up the climber turns around and gives the beginner sort of a “pull on this, don’t let go off that” instructional on the grigri and procedes to turn back to the rock and climb off.

I look at the belayer and he is fully fumbling with the rope. If he catches a fall it will be completely by accident. He is being overseen by the third climber, who is sitting 10 feet away looking at his phone.

The two more experienced climbers have the requisite self rescue gear on their harness, three or four locking biners, a length of 7mil cord, a small rescue pulley. The current climber is carrying both a grigri and ATC and an autoblock cord. The route the are toproping is maybe fifty feet long and there are at least 20 other climbers in the vicinity.

I’ve done the route they are on many times. It involves delicate and precise footwork, interesting body positions and a short dead point to a side pull at the crux.
The current climbers shoes fit him just fine for 5.8 routes at the gym, but for the small edges on the arete it’s like climbing in snowshoes, nevertheless he falls his way up the climb and declares it a good route when he tops out.

Mr Cellphone returns from the ether to guide the belayer in lowering the climber. No one gets hurt or dies.

The beginner goes up with not a note or comment from either of the other climbers and it’s obvious he simply has no clue what to do. After ten feet and 15 minutes on the rock he lowers off. They pack up and leave, all the while talking about this or that route at Lovers Leap, Tuolumne and Yosemite.

I’m actually shocked at what I just witnessed. With all the discussion of safety here on MP, all the talk about climbers “misusing” a Grigri and dropping their partner, all the actual partners dropped, their lack of concern leaves me speechless. The dichotomy of their lack of concern belaying, their beyond overkill set up of their top rope anchor, and carrying all the usual “self rescue” gear on their harnesses leaves me scratching my head.

They seemed to know the theory of climbing but not really know anything about climbing in real life.

Difficultly and performance is held above experience these days. These guys may have learned something by falling up the arete but given how poorly I saw them climb it I doubt it. Certainly the beginner’s time would have been more profitably spent on any of the far easier routes nearby.

I can’t figure it out. Is this the common beginner experience? Are beginners this clueless? Do beginners feel no desire to gain experience, establish a base of skill and work up the grades? Are beginners so unaware of the strength of two, modern 3/8” bolts that everything needs to be “equalized”? Do climbers who lack such basic understanding really think that they are going to be able to use their rescue gear to rescue anyone?

I just saw this posted on an obscure climbing social media platform:

"I’m out climbing at a popular area for the first time. There’s this older guy close by, belaying his partner on some harder route, staring at me and my buddies. He doesn’t even say “hi” to us! Just staring at us. Weird!

We were done with our last route and I suggested stringing a top rope on a nearby 5.11 (!!!!) arete. The anchor on top of the arete is two modern bolts with chains and these big hooks on them. I haven’t been climbing that long, but I was taught to not toprope through fixed gear as a courtesy and to minimize wear and tear, and to “equalize” the bolts and run the rope through double, opposing locking carabiners as “best practice”. Maybe there are other ways to set up an anchor, but I did what I knew to be safe for me. The guy belaying near us (he seemed kind of grumpy) gave a loud smirk when I was lowering off, shaking his head like we're doing something wrong.

One of my friends has only been out a few times with us. He has really comfortable climbing shoes because I told him that when I bought shoes the guy at REI told me to get them as tight as possible, and I had to return them, so I told him to get comfortable shoes. All our shoes are comfortable enough we can stand around in them for as long as 30 minutes or so. It’s awesome to have comfortable shoes!

I started up, wearing a helmet (I had just read this accident report about a climber who was killed and not wearing one, so I always wear mine), and have my friend belay me. He needed a quick refresher on how to use a Grigri. I had read somewhere (Mountain Project maybe?) that a Grigri has a "back up" where if the belayer loses control, there's a chance the device will lock up (I think they called it an "ABD"), which sounded like a good idea for my buddy - he hasn't belayed much.

The guy belaying next to our group is really giving us the stink eye as I climb, and I can’t figure out why. I figure I’m doing things as best as I know, and maybe if I was doing something wrong he’d help us out and say something, but nothing from this dude but grunts and hisses. He sure isn’t making things fun around here for us. I wonder if he's even having a good time himself!

My buddy and I always carry self rescue gear on our harness, three or four locking carabiners, a length of 7mm cord, a small rescue pulley. I also carry both a grigri and ATC and an autoblock cord. I’ve taken a beginner course on self-rescue, and carrying all this gear makes me feel more secure. I need to learn how to use it better ;)

I’ve never toproped something so hard, and boy was it hard! I take a lot of falls, but man was I PSYCHED to get to the anchor! What a great route! Maybe I’ll get some performance shoes if I try more hard climbing, but right now that’s not so important. I like just being out climbing with my buddies. But man, that belayer dude next to us sure doesn’t have much good to say. He just kind of sits there staring at us and shaking his head. I’ve met unfriendly people at the cliff, but this guy takes the cake!!

My buddy lowered me, and my other buddy pitched in to provide a backup belay. Thanks my friend!

My beginner buddy wants a try on the hard route, just for the hell of it (he’s never climbed harder than 5.8 at the gym!) and so he goes up a short way and gets super pumped but also SUPER psyched to be on something so hard. Super cool experience for him!! He lowers off and we pack up and leave, all the while talking about all the trips to Lovers Leap, Tuolumne and Yosemite we want to do. Climbing is so much fun!

But I’m actually shocked at the attitude of this old guy. With all the discussion of being friendly and welcoming at the crag I’ve read on MP, all the talk about climbers keeping an eye out for one another, all the talk of the climbing “tribe”, his negative attitude and lack of concern for all of that left me speechless. His unfriendliness, his constant snickering, and his general negative attitude, left me scratching my head!!!

Granted we haven’t climbed a lot, but each time we go out we learn more and more, and there is so much more to learn. We have an awesome experience when we go climbing, I love this sport! It’s so real to us, and for me personally it’s just something I want to keep doing. What a fun, challenging experience, physically — and mentally too. Spending time out climbing with my friends, whatever we’re doing, is the BEST!!!

Except that guy, giving us the stink eye all the time we’ve been here. I can’t figure it out. Normally, in the few times I get out climbing with my friends, other climbers are really friendly and helpful. But this time!!! Is this the common climbing experience? Are experienced climbers this rude and unfriendly? How about a simple "hello'? Do experienced climbers feel no desire to share their experience, to mentor beginners (like us) with a helpful hint, or some base skill so we can work up the grades? Are experienced climbers so unaware of the extra steps a beginner may take to make climbing safer, at least until they gain enough experience? Do climbers who lack such basic understandings of human interaction really think that because they’re “experienced” they can be so unfriendly?"

You just couldn’t stay away Nick, could you?

I'm kind of a gumby climber... I've been doing it since the 90s, but only made it a priority over the last 2 years.

But I know a lot about computers, and I know a lot about playing music.

It's the same everywhere, as far as I can tell.  Folks will sell you a $4k collings guitar regardless of how good you are.  You can register a domain name even if you don't know what a DNS server is.  They'll let you sit in the song circle at Luckenbach, TX even if you suck, and as long as you're not running malicious software you can serve whatever mess you want out to the web.

I've never been able to get too up in arms about folks not knowing about computer stuff... most of it's just so esoteric and boring that only nerds like me care about it.

But for a while I kind of had a distaste for half-assed musicians gigging 4 hour deals at a shitty bar for $30, 2 beers, and some nachos.  Especially when they sucked.  LIke I "get" wanting to gig, but you gotta pay your dues maybe?  I certainly did, and I have the beat up old upright bass to prove it.

At some point I just stopped caring about those folks.  

They really aren't doing the same kinds of things that I do, musically speaking.  That fact doesn't make them bad or me good... and it doesn't mean there isn't a galaxy of musicians who are all so far beyond what I do such that I'm only clumsily approximating what they do.

But knowing that fact has been very helpful.

I'm glad they'll let whoever wants to pretend that they're a musician play music.  I'm not the music police.  I don't take those gigs anyhow, and it's mostly just my own frustrations about where I was musically that irritated me with those folks ib the first place.  At some point I decided that there's simply no commercial appeal to what I play and now I have a lot more fun and am better at making music just for knowing that fact.

Same thing with climbing... there's a lot to be said for the willingness of clueless gumbies to go watch some youtube videos and decide that they're gonna go out and do that thing.  

I think it actually takes a lot more fortitude to be a clueless noob and have no idea what bullshit you're putting out than it does to, say, be  middle aged dude with some marginal self awareness and an self-imposed limit on what I am willing to do :D

Nick Rhoads wrote:

Cute, but you have too much time on your hands.

Got to be the real Tradiban....cuz he quoted the entire dissertation just to add a one liner

Mark Frumkinwrote: Bill, Amy, frank do you even climb? Do you know who you are talking about?

The guy who almost (but didn't) free the Salathe?

Steve Levinwrote:

I just saw this posted on an obscure climbing social media platform called ILoveClimbing.com:

"I’m out climbing at a popular area for the first time. There’s this older guy close by, belaying his partner on some harder route, staring at me and my buddies. He doesn’t even say “hi” to us! Just staring at us. Weird!

We were done with our last route and I suggested stringing a top rope on a nearby 5.11 (!!!!) arete. The anchor on top of the arete is two modern bolts with chains and these big hooks on them. I haven’t been climbing that long, but I was taught to not toprope through fixed gear as a courtesy and to minimize wear and tear, and to “equalize” the bolts and run the rope through double, opposing locking carabiners as “best practice”. Maybe there are other ways to set up an anchor, but I did what I knew to be safe for me. The guy belaying near us (he seemed kind of grumpy) gave a loud smirk when I was lowering off, shaking his head like we're doing something wrong.

One of my friends has only been out a few times with us. He has really comfortable climbing shoes because I told him that when I bought shoes the guy at REI told me to get them as tight as possible, and I had to return them, so I told him to get comfortable shoes. All our shoes are comfortable enough we can stand around in them for as long as 30 minutes or so. It’s awesome to have comfortable shoes!

I started up, wearing a helmet (I had just read this accident report about a climber who was killed and not wearing one, so I always wear mine), and have my friend belay me. He needed a quick refresher on how to use a Grigri. I had read somewhere (Mountain Project maybe?) that a Grigri has a "back up" where if the belayer loses control, there's a chance the device will lock up (I think they called it an "ABD"), which sounded like a good idea for my buddy - he hasn't belayed much.

The guy belaying next to our group is really giving us the stink eye as I climb, and I can’t figure out why. I figure I’m doing things as best as I know, and maybe if I was doing something wrong he’d help us out and say something, but nothing from this dude but grunts and hisses. He sure isn’t making things fun around here for us. I wonder if he's even having a good time himself!

My buddy and I always carry self rescue gear on our harness, three or four locking carabiners, a length of 7mm cord, a small rescue pulley. I also carry both a grigri and ATC and an autoblock cord. I’ve taken a beginner course on self-rescue, and carrying all this gear makes me feel more secure. I need to learn how to use it better ;)

I’ve never toproped something so hard, and boy was it hard! I take a lot of falls, but man was I PSYCHED to get to the anchor! What a great route! Maybe I’ll get some performance shoes if I try more hard climbing, but right now that’s not so important. I like just being out climbing with my buddies. But man, that belayer dude next to us sure doesn’t have much good to say. He just kind of sits there staring at us and shaking his head. I’ve met unfriendly people at the cliff, but this guy takes the cake!!

My buddy lowered me, and my other buddy pitched in to provide a backup belay. Thanks my friend!

My beginner buddy wants a try on the hard route, just for the hell of it (he’s never climbed harder than 5.8 at the gym!) and so he goes up a short way and gets super pumped but also SUPER psyched to be on something so hard. Super cool experience for him!! He lowers off and we pack up and leave, all the while talking about all the trips to Lovers Leap, Tuolumne and Yosemite we want to do. Climbing is so much fun!

But I’m actually shocked at the attitude of this old guy. With all the discussion of being friendly and welcoming at the crag I’ve read on MP, all the talk about climbers keeping an eye out for one another, all the talk of the climbing “tribe”, his negative attitude and lack of concern for all of that left me speechless. His unfriendliness, his constant snickering, and his general negative attitude, left me scratching my head!!!

Granted we haven’t climbed a lot, but each time we go out we learn more and more, and there is so much more to learn. We have an awesome experience when we go climbing, I love this sport! It’s so real to us, and for me personally it’s just something I want to keep doing. What a fun, challenging experience, physically — and mentally too. Spending time out climbing with my friends, whatever we’re doing, is the BEST!!!

Except that guy, giving us the stink eye all the time we’ve been here. I can’t figure it out. Normally, in the few times I get out climbing with my friends, other climbers are really friendly and helpful. But this time!!! Is this the common climbing experience? Are experienced climbers this rude and unfriendly? How about a simple "hello'? Do experienced climbers feel no desire to share their experience, to mentor beginners (like us) with a helpful hint, or some base skill so we can work up the grades? Are experienced climbers so unaware of the extra steps a beginner may take to make climbing safer, at least until they gain enough experience? Do climbers who lack such basic understandings of human interaction really think that because they’re “experienced” they can be so unfriendly?"

Ha! Very good! I actually like this a lot.
After our climbers were down, Cellphone Dude and I had a great conversation about Mexico and speaking Spanish.

And actually, an Interesting point here that relates, he was more of a “throw himself at the language“ kind of guy and I’m a more strict book learning kind of guy. 

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

So you’d be cool with a super experienced climber taking their hand off an ATC while TR belaying? I saw this first hand at the creek, don’t wanna say who cuz they’re still alive. Call me crazy but I like my partner to actually hold onto the rope.

Who uses atc's still? Sheesh it's 2020

But were they climbing with packs on?

I try to be a fair minded fellow and think that assumptions and after the fact assessments serve little to advance standards, knowledge, or safety within the “community” .    Forthrightness and timeliness are key.
That is why I issue printed  “citations” , enumerating and clarifying the offenses, to parties or individuals who cross the line of propriety or otherwise trigger my contempt.   At the bottom of each form is my contact info, should they choose to challenge my findings.  I have dismissed a few after further investigation, but I find most are upheld, with the recipients grateful, learning from it, and saving it for their records for future reference.
 I keep fines small, as the purpose is education and not punishment.  Often, merely a verbal warning is all that is needed.  
Some of the best climbers today have a fistful to their name and take it as a matter of pride and documentation of their progression.
I Suggest other elite climbers follow suit in service to the community (PM me for pre-printed citation forms)

Example of the “short form” for immediate red tagging of climbers or anchors you come across.   Often can be conveniently attached to their harness with the gym belay certification card.   Don’t be passive or aggressive, If you see something, say something.   Help save a life and take my short authorization course.  Equal opportunity employer.  Some restrictions apply.  Void where prohibited 

Sounds like Aeriel at Snowshed, any day of the week. As I passed by last Saturday, the chumps on it pulled their rope, and smacked my girlfriend on the head as well as the gent starting off on the direct start to Devaluation. They grunted, " Rope", as it smacked us on the heads. Morons by the bucketful up there these days. Had a look at Babylon this week Mark! Respect!

Donner can be rife with style police.

Mark Hudonwrote:

Ha! Very good! I actually like this a lot.
After our climbers were down, Cellphone Dude and I had a great conversation about Mexico and speaking Spanish.

And actually, an Interesting point here that relates, he was more of a “throw himself at the language“ kind of guy and I’m a more strict book learning kind of guy. 

Glad to hear everything was cordial. Mollifies my angsty “Remember, before the internet, when we used to talk to each other directly about the things that upset us?” hand-wringing. ¿Pero, todo esta bien, si?

Also appreciate you calling out that you would have engaged more directly, but were focused on belaying. I’m probably guilty myself of being too complacent/inattentive and overly relying on “watch me!” call-outs from my partners, but a bigger pet peeve for me than people over-relying on an ABD as a failsafe is folks having distracting side-conversations whilst belaying with an ATC/standard tube. Just *too* dicey for my money.

Hooray for book learning! Hooray for learning via mentorship! Hooray for learning through prudent experimentation! Hooray for learning!

Miss Catwrote:

False equivalence. When I see a gym rat leading up with a rack of pitons and a hammer, leather boots, hemp rope, then maybe I’d make that comparison. Yes it was dangerous, but that was obvious. I’d hazard that the inexperienced climbers of today are buoyed (burdened?) by a false confidence in their perceived abilities.

I'm not sure about that. I'm a noob climber, primarily in the gym 4X/week for 9 months. "Yo, I'm a 5.11 climber at the gym Bro!" Also, I'm old AF.

When I first went outdoors I was intimidated, not so much by the exposure, but by the fact that I had to figure out real rock. Not heights, not fear of making a rigging mistake, just getting up the crag on "easy" routes was difficult for me. 

reading this and all the comments sure makes me happy I keep to myself at the crag. cant believe the incredible ego of some of these posts.

Mark Hudonwrote: The two more experienced climbers have the requisite self rescue gear on their harness, three or four locking biners, a length of 7mil cord, a small rescue pulley. The current climber is carrying both a grigri and ATC and an autoblock cord.

Did you take inventory while climbing or belaying?  Or did you stop your day to take inventory?  Is this a typical day out?