A typical day out?

Two decades ago we helped a couple rappel down from the top of a multipitch climb. He refused to use an offset overhand bend knot "they don't call it the European Death Knot for nothing!" he refused to rappel without a tight prusik knot above his belay device that he constantly had to slowly work down the rope (even if we offered a fireman's belay from below). Yet he'd casually wander around unroped looking for the next set of anchors, even though we knew where they were and he just needed to wait a few minutes so we could all go over together. So I don't think this is a new thing (overly complicating things, being focused on gear and setups, rather than focusing on safe procedures and doing simple things correctly 100% of the time), it's just more common like all bad things you see at the crag.

Mark Frumkin wrote: Bill, Amy, frank do you even climb? Do you know who you are talking about?

Are you also insinuating that you TR off fixed gear? I'm super new to climbing and I've heard from every single resource I've read/listened to that you're not supposed to do this. Whether or not Mark is a legend doesn't change that fact. 

Look up the ClimbTech hooks. They are super thick, bomber, and have rated wire gates. Fine to TR on.

8/10

Mr. Hudon is back at it, stirring the pot once more

I have replaced mussy hooks after less than two years on a route that is (apparently) frequently top roped.
The Climb Tech hooks are more robust, but not eternal.

It is considerate to TR on your own gear, unless you are personally replacing hooks.
Or contributing a decent amount of $ to the ASCA annually, so that they can.

That being said, I would much rather replace hooks than have somebody get hurt because they are unable to competently TR off their own gear.
Still, the required level of competence is pretty low, and I think even most new climbers can get up to speed pretty quickly.

Summary: no one was particularly unsafe, or bothered other climbers in any way. Somehow some elitist climber is getting super worked up about it. Aren’t we out there to relax and have a good time? 

I know that when I climb, as I am just beginning to break into a new number grade, I will try to find a climb that allows me to top rope it several times before I get on the sharp end of the rope. Often that results in falling up the climb, being lowered back down, redoing sections, and I'm sure to more advanced climbers I look like a gumby. I think that there is no problem in them climbing the harder climb or even in how they protected it and the gear they brought up, but having a new belayer belay with little to no guidance is where I find fault. Whenever I teach new belayers I always make sure that they know what to do while I am still on the ground and then I have an experienced climber with them 'guiding' them through the movements if you will. I am under the impression that in order to learn and improve you have to get your butt kicked by a climb that is too hard every once in a while so you have something to aim for. 

I think the most important part of Mark's post is the "understanding the theory of climbing, but not real-life climbing."

Most of the things he witnessed point to this fact. Sure, the post could perhaps come off as elitist, but he has a good point, even if maybe it wasn't articulated so well.

I'd agree that it IS a problem in the climbing community, and many of us have probably witnessed it in some form or another.

Climbing is super-accessible these days: people read a bunch of shit, think they know a bunch of shit, then go out and do stupid shit.

I just realized I don't have a point, really.... Typical forum post, I suppose. 

J van wrote: I think it depends on the dedication to learning the craft. A lot of people want to look, act, and talk like a climber, but are not interested in the learning. I've taken the time to read FOH, Single Pitch AMGA manual, How to rock climb, climbing anchors, and trad climbers bible. I've very glad i have taken the time to do that so I can ask guides or more experienced climbers questions. I have not been climbing long, around 4 years very casually, but have been giving it more attention than other hobbies this year. I personally try to lead every 5.easy-5.8 without falling before I start leading 5.9's. I really do not want to hangdog my way up, that's humiliating to me. Could I lop my way up a 5.10 bolt by bolt? Probably, but I personally want to lead every thing I climb as cleanly as possible. A lot of people climbing seem perfectly ok with chilling in a hammock, taking pictures, and blowing their wad climbing something they have no business on. That's ok if that's what they want out of it, but that's just not what I'm out for.

In my short time, I've only had one mentor. I think being new it's kind of hard to find someone with a lot of experience to put a ton of time into a newer climber. I'm sure many of you mentor and I thank you for that, but I still think it's difficult for newer folks to find one. So if anyone in the SE wants to trad with me lmk, I have a set of cams and nuts, gonna do my first trad lead some time soon.

Yo, I'm in Asheville and would love to climb with you if you're ever in the area. I am less than a year in myself, but your words kinda spoke to me. I don't give a shit what I look or act like (as far as visual impressions go), the information in those books is fascinating and important to me, and I'm obsessed.

I say nothing usually, I dont want to hear the gumby get defensive and try and sound like they have a clue. If its putting anyone in my party in danger I usually will take action.

What gets me is "that voice". The voice dudes make when they are bragging or trying to seem on top of things. Its kind of a deep nasally voice, maybe I'll call it the peacock voice?

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

Yes as opposed to BITD when folks like Chounaird and Bonatti went out with an equally inexperienced friend with whatever rope they could find. So safe.

False equivalence. When I see a gym rat leading up with a rack of pitons and a hammer, leather boots, hemp rope, then maybe I’d make that comparison. Yes it was dangerous, but that was obvious. I’d hazard that the inexperienced climbers of today are buoyed (burdened?) by a false confidence in their perceived abilities.

Mark Hudon wrote: I was busy belaying, I had to pay attention to my partner, otherwise I would have certainly offered belay advise 

Awful lot of close observations on the other team while being busy paying attention to your partner ;)

I think Mark’s experience has become pretty standard for more knowledgeable climbers going to popular areas. You see a newer group out climbing and while they might not be doing anything life threateningly dangerous, you become quite aware of the absolute junk show that those folks are having and it makes you nervous cause you know something could very easily go wrong and they wouldn’t be able to handle it on their own. Also, Mark and Jordan just have their systems so fucking dialed that any deviation from that by another party is deeply offensive

There are more new climbers around partly because there are simply more people. Many parts of the west have been booming. I've seen a lot more folks at our local stuff in just the last couple years.

Stupid dangerous stuff has always happened, nothing new about that. As high school kids, my dad and his buddy rigged a canoe with a sail....to play on a (then) completely wild Columbia River. Telling stories like that, he would smile fondly, but also shake his head that he survived.

My scary story involved kids at our local cliff.

My partner and I were on something easy, I was just starting up our route. Arriving at the route next to us, a boy who looked to be a young teen gave very limited instruction to the preteen belayer. The totally clueless "leader" climbed to the first bolt, with no active belay at all, where he started to tell the completely befuddled "belayer" how to lower him....by pushing in the override on the cinch.

By now, both my partner and I are quite alarmed. I stop in place on the wall, my partner (also using a cinch, but with long experience) yells "NO!!" at both of them, and to stop immediately. I tell my partner I will stand up there as long as needed, you go get the kids straightened out. He simply ties off his belay, walks the few feet over, and takes over operation of the other cinch, lowering fearless leader to the ground. He then walks back, lowers me, we both basically tell them they have no business whatever being there unsupervised, then we pack up and leave. I honestly don't remember if we delivered this gently or not, but it was unequivocal. Plus, my partner was a cop, briefly, and still looks it, lol!

The most unfortunate one in my area, was a fatality at City of Rocks last year. It happened only a couple weeks before my group was there, climbing routes adjacent. One of our climbers was then sixteen. A strong climber, but really inexperienced and lacking some super basic skills (he can lead, but has not yet learned to clean an anchor, for example). It was a great opportunity to work with this great young man, and keep reinforcing that this shit is real.

That accident, for those who don't remember?

A climber gave a Grigri and very minimal instruction to their totally inexperienced belayer. What they neglected to mention? Watch for the middle mark. The climber also neglected to tie a knot in the rope end, or be certain of rope length for the route (this often comes up at COR). 

Yes, your guess is correct. Rope not long enough, and they were lowered right off the rope.The belayer will now have to live with this forever. All based on trusting a friend who thought they could climb to have some basic idea WTF they are doing.

Pure dumb luck has saved a few of us as noobs from our own ignorance, I'm sure.

Pure dumb luck has also saved some of us as we became experienced. And still quite capable of doing stoopid.

But? My partner and I will continue working with our teenaged friend, alongside his dad, to help him learn.

And always remember it's for real. Every time.

Pure dumb luck sucks ballz as a plan A.

Best, Helen

Dave K wrote: The first time I saw one of the stonemasters in Yosemite he was belaying someone on TR using a grigri, hands completely off the rope.

Yep, he’s on the other side of the curve....often times you see raw gumbies and experienced legends doing the exact same thing....just for different reasons. (Sometimes same reason)

Mark Pilate wrote:

often times you see raw gumbies and experienced legends doing the exact same thing...

oh?

The older, more experienced the climber, the more lackadaisical they are with the belay (lots of slack out, chit chat, etc.....). It personally doesn't bother me if someone with loads of experience does this, but if a gumby did this I wouldn't be stoked.

Mark Hudon wrote: I’m out climbing at a popular area an area I know quite well. There are three guys close by who are climbing some 5.7/5.8 routes.

They are done with their last route and one of them suggests stringing a top rope on a nearby 5.11a arete. The anchor on top of the arete is two modern bolts with chains and those ClimbTech hooks on them that would take several hundred years of top roping to wear out. Nevertheless, he “equalizes” the bolts and runs their rope though double, opposing locking biners.

The double lockers are unnecessary, but not unsafe.
TR'ing through your own gear is the generally accepted best practice.

One of the climbers seems to be a rank beginner and they all have been standing around in their climbing shoes for as long as I’ve been there, 30 minutes or so.

Many climbers have comfortable all-day shoes, especially if they normally do moderate multi-pitch. It's only a problem IMO if there's water or snow at the base that would impact your friction, or if you're walking around a lot and wearing down your edges.

The one most experienced looking guy, wearing a helmet, goes up with the least experienced looking guy “belaying” him. 10 feet up the climber turns around and gives the beginner sort of a “pull on this, don’t let go off that” instructional on the grigri and procedes to turn back to the rock and climb off.

I look at the belayer and he is fully fumbling with the rope. If he catches a fall it will be completely by accident. He is being overseen by the third climber, who is sitting 10 feet away looking at his phone.

The belaying is a genuine safety problem and worth calling out. I'm glad the climber was wearing a helmet. An experienced climber died a couple of weeks ago around here falling at the third bolt and impacting his helmetless head.

The two more experienced climbers have the requisite self rescue gear on their harness, three or four locking biners, a length of 7mil cord, a small rescue pulley. The current climber is carrying both a grigri and ATC and an autoblock cord. The route the are toproping is maybe fifty feet long and there are at least 20 other climbers in the vicinity.

Not sure why this bothers so many people. If you normally multi-pitch and carry basic self-rescue stuff on your harness, why bother taking it off to casually sport climb? Most of us aren't climbing so hard that five ounces matter. Some folks prefer to carry their rescue gear all the time rather than risk leaving it behind the next time they need it.

I’ve done the route they are on many times. It involves delicate and precise footwork, interesting body positions and a short dead point to a side pull at the crux.
The current climbers shoes fit him just fine for 5.8 routes at the gym, but for the small edges on the arete it’s like climbing in snowshoes, nevertheless he falls his way up the climb and declares it a good route when he tops out.

Lots of sport climbers will thrash on something hard just for funsies, especially if it's nearby and open. And maybe he only has one pair of shoes?

Mr Cellphone returns from the ether to guide the belayer in lowering the climber. No one gets hurt or dies.

Good. Glad nobody was hurt.

The beginner goes up with not a note or comment from either of the other climbers and it’s obvious he simply has no clue what to do. After ten feet and 15 minutes on the rock he lowers off. 

Some people prefer to try without beta.

They pack up and leave, all the while talking about this or that route at Lovers Leap, Tuolumne and Yosemite.

And this bothers you why? We were all new once with stars in our eyes and inspiration in the hills.

I’m actually shocked at what I just witnessed. With all the discussion of safety here on MP, all the talk about climbers “misusing” a Grigri and dropping their partner, all the actual partners dropped, their lack of concern leaves me speechless. 

Yes, this is the crux. They were far too casual about the belay.

The dichotomy of their lack of concern belaying, their beyond overkill set up of their top rope anchor, and carrying all the usual “self rescue” gear on their harnesses leaves me scratching my head. 

I don't have any problem with their use of best practices in the anchor or carrying self rescue gear, but I agree their casual attitude toward the belay needed immediate correction. It sounds to me like they were all relatively new and had picked up a variety of habits, some reasonable and some very bad. When you're new, you don't always know the difference.

They seemed to know the theory of climbing but not really know anything about climbing in real life. 

So, you're saying they were inexperienced?

Difficultly and performance is held above experience these days. These guys may have learned something by falling up the arete but given how poorly I saw them climb it I doubt it. Certainly the beginner’s time would have been more profitably spent on any of the far easier routes nearby.

I mean, maybe they didn't use their time super efficiently to make maximum skill progression, but for many climbers that's not necessarily the goal. Have fun and be safe, right? Separating the wheat from the chaff, the unsafe belay was absolutely worth speaking up about.  

I can’t figure it out. Is this the common beginner experience? 

Yes

Are beginners this clueless? 

Yeah, we all were.

Do beginners feel no desire to gain experience, establish a base of skill and work up the grades? 

Depends on the climber.

Are beginners so unaware of the strength of two, modern 3/8” bolts that everything needs to be “equalized”? 

Wouldn't you rather have beginners using best practices rather than inexperienced judgment?

Do climbers who lack such basic understanding really think that they are going to be able to use their rescue gear to rescue anyone?

Probably not, but maybe some days they will use their gear to practice. Or if they're actually in a position where someone needs rescue, they'll be able to collaborate with some experienced climber nearby who knows how to use the gear but didn't bother to bring it.

I understand your opinions, Mark, and you're entitled to them. Just responding here so that newer folks reading along will be able to focus on the real safety issue and know that not everyone cares whether they change their shoes, maximize their efficiency, carry rescue gear, spray about climbs they're dreaming of, or over-engineer a TR anchor.

I do think there's a learning curve. At the beginning, the wisest thing is to rely on standard best practices and focus your attention on safety. As you get more experienced, you gain the judgement to diverge from best practices, customize, and optimize. I'm sure these folks could have learned a lot from a mentor like you, Mark, but it seems they didn't have access to a mentor like you.  

Gumby boy king wrote: The older, more experienced the climber, the more lackadaisical they are with the belay (lots of slack out, chit chat, etc.....). It personally doesn't bother me if someone with loads of experience does this, but if a gumby did this I wouldn't be stoked.

I'd argue a lot has to do with setting the example though.  If Gumbies are looking up to the older people and seeing that these behaviors are acceptable then yeah...

i don't really think this is a new thing, nor do i think it is strictly demonstrated by beginner climbers.  you probably notice it more now because the older you get the more you pay attention to everything else going on.  when you are younger you tend to focus more on the immediate "area".  i have been climbing for over 30 years (long time compared to some folks and short time compared to others).  i can remember these types of things happening the entire time.  basically, 90% of people are brain dead and this percentage probably hasn't fluctuated much throughout history.
and, as other folks have probably mentioned, some of the worst belays i have ever had were by very experienced climbers.