A typical day out?

I’m out climbing at a popular area an area I know quite well. There are three guys close by who are climbing some 5.7/5.8 routes.

They are done with their last route and one of them suggests stringing a top rope on a nearby 5.11a arete. The anchor on top of the arete is two modern bolts with chains and those ClimbTech hooks on them that would take several hundred years of top roping to wear out. Nevertheless, he “equalizes” the bolts and runs their rope though double, opposing locking biners.

One of the climbers seems to be a rank beginner and they all have been standing around in their climbing shoes for as long as I’ve been there, 30 minutes or so.

The one most experienced looking guy, wearing a helmet, goes up with the least experienced looking guy “belaying” him. 10 feet up the climber turns around and gives the beginner sort of a “pull on this, don’t let go off that” instructional on the grigri and procedes to turn back to the rock and climb off.

I look at the belayer and he is fully fumbling with the rope. If he catches a fall it will be completely by accident. He is being overseen by the third climber, who is sitting 10 feet away looking at his phone.

The two more experienced climbers have the requisite self rescue gear on their harness, three or four locking biners, a length of 7mil cord, a small rescue pulley. The current climber is carrying both a grigri and ATC and an autoblock cord. The route the are toproping is maybe fifty feet long and there are at least 20 other climbers in the vicinity.

I’ve done the route they are on many times. It involves delicate and precise footwork, interesting body positions and a short dead point to a side pull at the crux. 
The current climbers shoes fit him just fine for 5.8 routes at the gym, but for the small edges on the arete it’s like climbing in snowshoes, nevertheless he falls his way up the climb and declares it a good route when he tops out.

Mr Cellphone returns from the ether to guide the belayer in lowering the climber. No one gets hurt or dies.

The beginner goes up with not a note or comment from either of the other climbers and it’s obvious he simply has no clue what to do. After ten feet and 15 minutes on the rock he lowers off. They pack up and leave, all the while talking about this or that route at Lovers Leap, Tuolumne and Yosemite.

I’m actually shocked at what I just witnessed. With all the discussion of safety here on MP, all the talk about climbers “misusing” a Grigri and dropping their partner, all the actual partners dropped, their lack of concern leaves me speechless. The dichotomy of their lack of concern belaying, their beyond overkill set up of their top rope anchor, and carrying all the usual “self rescue” gear on their harnesses leaves me scratching my head. 

They seemed to know the theory of climbing but not really know anything about climbing in real life. 

Difficultly and performance is held above experience these days. These guys may have learned something by falling up the arete but given how poorly I saw them climb it I doubt it. Certainly the beginner’s time would have been more profitably spent on any of the far easier routes nearby.

I can’t figure it out. Is this the common beginner experience? Are beginners this clueless? Do beginners feel no desire to gain experience, establish a base of skill and work up the grades? Are beginners so unaware of the strength of two, modern 3/8” bolts that everything needs to be “equalized”? Do climbers who lack such basic understanding really think that they are going to be able to use their rescue gear to rescue anyone?

Alf's Arete or Little Feat? Snowshed is one hell of a shit show.

Mark Hudonwrote:Is this the common beginner experience? Are beginners this clueless? Do beginners feel no desire to gain experience, establish a base of skill and work up the grades? Are beginners so unaware of the strength of two, modern 3/8” bolts that everything needs to be “equalized”? Do climbers who lack such basic understanding really think that they are going to be able to use their rescue gear to rescue anyone?

No

There really should be a locking door between beginner and advanced climbers.

I think it depends on the dedication to learning the craft. A lot of people want to look, act, and talk like a climber, but are not interested in the learning. I've taken the time to read FOH, Single Pitch AMGA manual, How to rock climb, climbing anchors, and trad climbers bible. I've very glad i have taken the time to do that so I can ask guides or more experienced climbers questions. I have not been climbing long, around 4 years very casually, but have been giving it more attention than other hobbies this year. I personally try to lead every 5.easy-5.8 without falling before I start leading 5.9's. I really do not want to hangdog my way up, that's humiliating to me. Could I lop my way up a 5.10 bolt by bolt? Probably, but I personally want to lead every thing I climb as cleanly as possible. A lot of people climbing seem perfectly ok with chilling in a hammock, taking pictures, and blowing their wad climbing something they have no business on. That's ok if that's what they want out of it, but that's just not what I'm out for.

In my short time, I've only had one mentor. I think being new it's kind of hard to find someone with a lot of experience to put a ton of time into a newer climber. I'm sure many of you mentor and I thank you for that, but I still think it's difficult for newer folks to find one. So if anyone in the SE wants to trad with me lmk, I have a set of cams and nuts, gonna do my first trad lead some time soon.

Ok I think honestly this question is answered by basic human tendencies. Like, the "experienced" climbers probably don't really know/care about how/when to educate the new climber, and maybe learned in a similar fashion as they are "teaching". And like me, they probably read about climbing stuff ALL DAY and know every single piece of gear and what its used for, but don't know how to use it, but think that it will help them send 5.10/11.

Also, I think that beginner climber probably didn't know/didn't want to ask questions, show concern, or anything, maybe he/she assumes that the "mentors" know best.

I've def seen stuff like this before, its super annoying. I'm sure any given saturday in the Red there will be a bunch of parties like this.

Also, and I'm def guilty of this back in my gumby days, the strongest climber wants to prove to others/himself he can get up a "hard" climb, so he falls his way up a hard climb and then dreams someday of doing Midnight Lightning or Moonlight Buttress.

Really what it boils down to is people often can't communicate well or see when communication is necessary, and so they fail at it. Also people just don't want to take things slow. They want it NOW.

OP.....Did you offer any of your expert advice to coach them to do the correct things?

No dog... check
No music....check
No kids....check 

No bong..... these guys are clearly not experts.

Mark has left the Big Wall to witness Small Wall Climbing.  Welcome back!

I would also add that I sincerely believe it is the duty of more experienced climbers to kindly and respectfully and patiently make suggestions, unless of course a life is on the line, then go nuts. 

This is a confusing post - it seems like you're alternately upset with this group for being too safe (overengineering their TR anchor, carrying rescue gear) and not safe enough (not giving a beginner belayer enough instruction); and throwing in some random judgments that have nothing to do with safety such as shoe fit or how smoothly someone climbs on a TR climb. Maybe their motivation for the way they built the anchor has nothing to do with lacking understanding of bolt strength - personally I wouldn't send a beginner up a climb with the TR only through mussy hooks, there is a potentially catastrophic failure mode which can happen if someone climbs above the anchor then falls down past it, which of course experienced climbers are likely to know to be careful of but not necessarily beginners. Maybe the climber's shoes were loose-fitting cause his aggressive ones are getting resoled, or maybe he's recovering from a toe injury, or maybe he just doesn't like an aggressive fit. Maybe they're carrying all that rescue gear because they always carry it, which I personally think is good practice, and maybe they do know how to use it - it's not like you watched them botch a self-rescue with that gear. The only legitimate critique seems to be that the belayer didn't know what they were doing and the other climbers allowed him to belay without enough instruction or oversight. I'm wondering why you gave this group enough of your attention to form an opinion about how their shoes fit, but not enough to step in and offer some advice or assistance to the belayer? 

What Em said.

I'd say its more of a mentality. There is a type of person out there who loves gear and being apart of the scene but doesn't love the physical and exposure part of climbing. The climber that is at a sport crag hanging most the way up the warm-up then setting up a rap with a prussik.

Similar to someone who collects backpacking gear just to talk about it and uses it once a year.

Also nothing wrong with be a beginner or someone who just loves gear/culture. Different tastes for different people.

I was busy belaying, I had to pay attention to my partner, otherwise I would have certainly offered belay advise 

There's a difference between 10 years of experience and repeating what you learned in the first 6 months 20 times.

Dave K wrote: This is the first time I've ever heard someone advocate TRing directly off fixed gear. I don't do it, I teach others not to do it, and I really don't see the point of calling out someone for not doing it.

Yeah, I didn't see that when I first read it. 

TR'ing through the fixed gear is a no-no. No? Always has been.

FrankPSwrote:

Yeah, I didn't see that when I first read it. 

TR'ing through the fixed gear is a no-no. No? Always has been.

OP just exposed himself as the asshole who top-ropes through fixed gear because it’s more convenient.

There likely exists an activity Mark participates in where he looks exactly the same to others more experienced.  If confronted, it's likely he would declare he doesn't give a shit.  I look this way playing golf - for sure.

Mark Hudonwrote: 
I can’t figure it out. Is this the common beginner experience? Are beginners this clueless? Do beginners feel no desire to gain experience, establish a base of skill and work up the grades? Are beginners so unaware of the strength of two, modern 3/8” bolts that everything needs to be “equalized”? Do climbers who lack such basic understanding really think that they are going to be able to use their rescue gear to rescue anyone?

I’ve definitely seen all of the above. Even seen all of the above in one group in the course of one day. “Equalizing” the bolts is funny, but not harmful, the clown-sized shoes are also funny, but not dangerous on toprope.   I would put those in a different category from clueless fumbling belay...

If you think it’s terrifying to watch a TR belay instruction from 10 feet off the ground, wait until you see a lead belay instruction in the same scenario!

Not all beginners are clueless, but there are more beginners, and more of blind-leading-blind sort of scenarios. If you chat with them, and offer some friendly advice they will often listen. 

Bill, Amy, frank do you even climb? Do you know who you are talking about?