5.12a trad send comparison to other sport accomplishments

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

As a person who tried really hard to run fast in my early 20s, I disagree. 1:24 half and 3:30 full and I was working my butt off.

Once I started focusing on climbing, I progressed through those early milestones quite quickly just by being psyched. I can't say I didn't work hard but it took a lot less and I was certainly more successful than with running.

Maybe, but I’ve seen way more runners BQ after a year of training and 0 climbers sending 5.12 on gear. For me, 5.12 is more possible than BQ, but the goal is to count as many people as possible. 

Molly Zwrote:

Maybe, but I’ve seen way more runners BQ after a year of training and 0 climbers sending 5.12 on gear. For me, 5.12 is more possible than BQ, but the goal is to count as many people as possible. 

For one, there are way more runners. It does not take any more athletic talent to climb a 5.12a on gear than on bolts, and plenty of climbers get to or beyond 5.12a level within a year. What takes to climb trad well is experience (and free climbing in general is a fairly technical activity), so of course it takes longer compared to running.

Anecdotal stories about how fast we run vs how hard we climb is definitely the best way to set a benchmark of ability. 

Gumby boy kingwrote:

Lol. Loads of weekend warriors have sent the beaver, many other harder .12s in Josh and other trad areas. Its 2020 brajmahalla, get wid the times.

Sending a .12 on gear makes you a pretty good climber you know, run of the mill sorts and can hold your own, hardly elite.

Breaking par on a championship golf course also does not make you elite, either. Think level of difficulty rather than level of elite. Maybe that will help. 

Maybe enough people don't know about golf, maybe better to go with the running times like you guys are doing now. 

I don't know about running, just climbing, golf, and surfing. I remember a day at Huntington in the winter, it was 8', thick thick lips, and pitching oval. Surfing those waves was as elite (as difficult) as leading a 5.12a trad route.  There are way more serious waves around the world, but that wave was 12a trad serious. :)

Joe Huntwrote:

Breaking par on a championship golf course also does not make you elite, either. Think level of difficulty rather than level of elite. Maybe that will help. 

Maybe enough people don't know about golf, maybe better to go with the running times like you guys are doing now. 

I don't know about running, just climbing, golf, and surfing. I remember a day at Huntington in the winter, it was 8', thick thick lips, and pitching oval. Surfing those waves was as elite (as difficult) as leading a 5.12a trad route.  There are way more serious waves around the world, but that wave was 12a trad serious. :)

South pier hunts can get heavy for sure, but hardly elite. Again, when hunts gets like that the water is still packed. When you see a wave like Teahupoo going off and the Boyz are paddling in and getting some serious greenroom time, that's elite. There is consequence, and a lot of skill involved. If I boof it at Huntington little to no consequence.

Bill Schickwrote:

Maybe, and with experience his points certainly become less of a factor, but one thing you can't get rid of is the weight of a rack.  Anyone who thinks they climb just as hard with +5 lbs on their waist has never tried.  I think your perspective might be different with some actual trad climbs in your ticklist instead of just desert cracks where the rack is usually a precise given and a continuous TR possible if not the norm.  Trad is ground-up on-sight adventure climbing with only your best estimate of what gear is needed.  It's definitely not posing for Instaspray with 2 pcs left on your rack on a climb you have wired after dozens of practice laps.  Desert cracks are only a small step up, IMO.

Funny. If tick list are telling, you've never really climbed anything, of course your post is a troll or lack of experience (or likely a combo). My list has an extremely small % of my climbs and only some climbs to bookmark dates or routes. Been climbing since the early 90s. Most harder trad ascents were in the Black Canyon, Sandias, Cathedral NH, western MT, NRG, Gunks, Alps, etc, and not just desert cracks (although I sure do love them). I climbed > my tick list in pitches in the French Alps over the last 16 days....

Your desert crack scenario isn't really accurate or possible in practice, if you are at or very near your limit, even though it is often attempted. If you are a 12- climber, attempting a 12-, and you try to bump gear and/or place so much you are on a near continuous TR, you WILL pump out and not send. You have to gun for it and often run it out to get it done. You can use this method on a 12- if you are >= 12+ climber and make it to the chains. The exception would be an OW that you can slot a knee and go hands-free. Some of my worst falls have been on thin desert cracks, where the rope is often flipping around your heels when above gear.

Rope drag is almost always more of an issue than the extra rack weight. Unless the route is overhanging and has big gear, drag is way more important than the weight.

Trad is a LOT more than onsight adventure climbing. Go to T-wall or the gunks and talk to the 12 and up climbers and tell those folks they aren't trad climbing and report back. If the OP said 12a trad onsight adventure climbing vs. 12a onsight sport, my stance would be quite different. I've only onsighted a modest number of 12 trad routes, compared to routes I have worked on or otherwise had beta for, and mostly with straight forward gear that you can get an idea of from the ground.

Read the OP. Pretty sure they just want to lead a trad 12a or 2, probably with putting some work into it, and asking what that relates to in another sport (my opinion and experience is that its not much harder than a similarly graded sport route). Not becoming a tradmaster with the skills and experience for tackling big onsight 12a trad adventure routes.

YMMV

Didn’t put much thought into this. Just off the top of my head.

Marathon times (men)

<2:05 = 15c/d
2:15 = 14d/15a
2:30 = 13c
2:45 = 12d
3:00 = 11d
3:30 = 10b

I ran a 4:45 in high school after about 2 years of training, then started climbing... I think I’ve top roped a 5.12...

Maybe genetic disposition came into play, or quality of training.

Greg Daviswrote:

I ran a 4:45 in high school after about 2 years of training, then started climbing... I think I’ve top roped a 5.12...

Maybe genetic disposition came into play, or quality of training.

Would you say you have trained for climbing with the same level of coaching and effort as you did when you were running?  If you don't have coaching or a better climber advising you then you will likely focus on the wrong areas and not make needed improvements.  

Do you have a fear of falling, does the mental game hold you back when you climb?  If you don't push to failure then it is unlikely that your mussels will make gains. 

These are things to think about.  I have a friend that I discussed this with recently off line. He has climbed for many years without becoming a 5.12 climber. He believes it takes genetic gifts. 

He also runs ultra marathons. He defiantly climbs a lot but the type of climbing is focused on enjoyment and mileage. ( lots of sub 5.10 multi pitch)

His running on the other hand is focused and goal oriented. I think this perspective might be preventable throughout the climbers that don't climb 5.12 and don't "train effectively" for it. 

https://www.underpargoals.com/percentage-golfers-break-par/

https://blog.prepscholar.com/sat-percentiles-high-precision-2016

Another anecdotal data point: In my opinion 5.12- trad is more like 5:15-5:30 1-mile time. People are in crazy hard-climber bubbles round these parts. Sure, a 5.12- climber might not be able to run a 5:30 but I would say the level of running fitness etc/time dedication sounds about right. There is a huge mental component, BMI component (generally), dedication to specific muscle groups, and mileage component to get to 5.12a. 

As someone who climbed 5.12 this week and has run 5:30 mile pace multiple times in the last week. I run maybe 7 hours per week and spend 20 waking hours climbing, hilking or belaying. This anecdotal evidence is still dumb. 

Here is a climb:

Here are two of my runs:

First Run obviously running 4 miles on a bike path with homless people in my way I could pretty easily do a one mile time trial south of 5:15:

Second Run the 5:17 was fast downhill in a lot of rain and the 5:30 was rolling hills that was net negative:

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

As someone who climbed 5.12 this week and has run 5:30 mile pace multiple times in the last week. I run maybe 7 hours per week and spend 20 waking hours climbing, hilking or belaying. This anecdotal evidence is still dumb. 

Here is a climb:

Here are two of my runs:

First Run:

Second Run the 5:17 was fast downhill in a lot of rain and the 5:30 was rolling hills that was net negative:

Did you happen to fall off of a Flatiron about a year or so ago?? 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

As someone who climbed 5.12 this week and has run 5:30 mile pace multiple times in the last week. I run maybe 7 hours per week and spend 20 waking hours climbing, hilking or belaying. This anecdotal evidence is still dumb. 

Here is a climb:

Here are two of my runs:

First Run obviously running 4 miles on a bike path with homless people in my way I could pretty easily do a one mile time trial south of 5:15:

Second Run the 5:17 was fast downhill in a lot of rain and the 5:30 was rolling hills that was net negative:

SLICK SPRAY.... actually not slick at all, let me get my swim goggles on and rain jacket to protect myself.

Also thread title is .12a trad, according to your profile you climb 5.6 trad

Gumby boy kingwrote:

SLICK SPRAY.... actually not slick at all, let me get my swim goggles on and rain jacket to protect myself.

Also thread title is .12a trad, according to your profile you climb 5.6 trad

And you  climb 5.1 trad brah. Point being as someone who has the physical capacity to do both the running and climbing currently being talked about in this thread it is a dumb to use your own personal experience as data.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

As someone who climbed 5.12 this week and has run 5:30 mile pace multiple times in the last week. I run maybe 7 hours per week and spend 20 waking hours climbing, hilking or belaying. This anecdotal evidence is still dumb. 

Here is a climb:

Here are two of my runs:

First Run obviously running 4 miles on a bike path with homless people in my way I could pretty easily do a one mile time trial south of 5:15:

Second Run the 5:17 was fast downhill in a lot of rain and the 5:30 was rolling hills that was net negative:

I mean, this looks like it would support my anecdote. The question OP asks is what would you tell non-climbers that your goal of 5.12- trad is comparable to. The whole thread is going to be speculative; you can't really use team sports as a measure because it seems less relevant to compare winning a NCAA D1 league title or something to climbing so we could reasonably make attempts at comparing it to other individual sports; like running, swimming,  or golf (I liked the golf comparisons, I know nothing about golf or what constitutes a good score besides "under 90" but I assume it takes time, dedication, and skill to achieve a low score). If you went for a 1-mile time and went all out it is more than likely you could make sub 5 minute. If you didn't break sub 5' you could reasonably put in some work to do so in short order. Now, the guy who onsites 5.12- but has a higher bmi, or less leg muscle recruitment, or less aerobic capacity etc. than you would have to do likely quite a bit of work to run that sub 5 minute mile time. Again I'm just spit-balling. 

Seth Morganwrote:

I mean, this looks like it would support my anecdote. The question OP asks is what would you tell non-climbers that your goal of 5.12- trad is comparable to. The whole thread is going to be speculative; you can't really use team sports as a measure because it seems less relevant to compare winning a NCAA D1 league title or something to climbing so we could reasonably make attempts at comparing it to other individual sports; like running, swimming,  or golf (I liked the golf comparisons, I know nothing about golf or what constitutes a good score besides "under 90" but I assume it takes time, dedication, and skill to achieve a low score). If you went for a 1-mile time and went all out it is more than likely you could make sub 5 minute. If you didn't break sub 5' you could reasonably put in some work to do so in short order. Now, the guy who onsites 5.12- but has a higher bmi, or less leg muscle recruitment, or less aerobic capacity etc. than you would have to do likely quite a bit of work to run that sub 5 minute mile time. Again I'm just spit-balling. 

I ran in college, so if I trained for 8 weeks running I would probably be 4:40 ish but I havent really been running much. if I trained for 8 weeks for climbing I would probably be 5.12b/c. Point being my data is flawed because I have 30k miles on my legs and only 6 years of rock climbing. The effort for me to run fast versus climb harder is skewed much like everyone else in this threads data.

Edit: responding to the two next posts, my comments were mostly directed at page 5 which was mostly focused on broad climbing ability. My point isn’t the 5.12 sport or trad or running are all the same/different my point is that anecdotal data is dumb.  And the 5.6 trad comment lol I have done one 5.6 this year don’t know what to tell you. If I makes you feel better call me a 5.6 trad climber who struggles with 20 min miles. Right now I’m probably one of the people closer to doing both the running and climbing marks in this thread?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

And you  climb 5.1 trad brah. Point being as someone who has the physical capacity to do both the running and climbing currently being talked about in this thread it is a dumb to use your own personal experience as data.

You don’t have the capacity to climb 5.12 trad... you climb 5.6 trad

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

And you  climb 5.1 trad brah. Point being as someone who has the physical capacity to do both the running and climbing currently being talked about in this thread it is a dumb to use your own personal experience as data.

Ill jump on this one.  As the OP as well as someone who has sent 5.12a sport, I'll pile on that 5.12a sport IS NOT USUALLY equivalent to 5.12a trad in terms of physical or mental fitness.  One could argue that everything about trad can be different, the holds, the style, the movement, placing gear...the list goes on. 

I asked about 5.12a Trad.

Probably the mentality to run far and fast is akin to those who will put in the effort to climb hard, but I don’t really see the comparison to running and climbing.  Running is basically the same thing over and over, climbing is problem solving and nuanced balance.  As for the OP, I’d say climbing 12a is like getting a partial sports scholarship to an in-state college.