5.12a trad send comparison to other sport accomplishments

Kristian Solemwrote:

It's not that simple. The world is full of uber-fit people who will never be able to climb worth a damn no matter how hard they try. 

I disagree. Basically all you need is marginal but fairly specific fitness, pretty basic understanding of technique, movement and body awareness, and a good head. 

Joe Huntwrote:

Having done both for over 40 years I would say leading 12a trad at a place like Joshua Tree or tahquitz, would be similar, in terms of how elite it is, to being able to break par on a championship golf course. Basically you have to be a pro, or a fairly special amateur.

So I am elite if I send any of the following: 

LA toit

Leave it to beaver

Untickable

Seems like a stretch in today's day and age.

Easier than doing this - youtu.be/zpaTMjuxaEg?t=93

Gumby boy kingwrote:

So I am elite if I send any of the following: 

LA toit

Leave it to beaver

Untickable

Seems like a stretch in today's day and age.

I didn't exactly say it would make you Elite. I said the level of just how elite would be comparable to Breaking par on a championship golf course. With both, a weekend warrior will not be able to do either. But a lot of kids playing golf on a college team likely will be able to break part on a championship course on a good day. A lot of mini tour players will be able to as well. And all PGA and LPGA and Senior PGA players definitely can.

Michael Atlaswrote:

Trying to send a 5.12a trad route or two by end of year.  Non climbing family and friends aren't really able to comprehend what this means.  

Any comparisons to toss out?  Shooting below par(golf)?  7 minute mile? 

Bonus points if supported by stats( ex x amount of climbers can send a 5.12 trad and x amount of golfers can shoot below par)

sending 5.12a trad by working up a route and getting the moves and gear dialed is totally unimpressive. Sending 5.12a trad onsight is not. Which of the two are you referring to?

Joe Huntwrote:

I didn't exactly say it would make you Elite. I said the level of just how elite would be comparable to Breaking par on a championship golf course. With both, a weekend warrior will not be able to do either. But a lot of kids playing golf on a college team likely will be able to break part on a championship course on a good day. A lot of mini tour players will be able to as well. And all PGA and LPGA and Senior PGA players definitely can.

Lol. Loads of weekend warriors have sent the beaver, many other harder .12s in Josh and other trad areas. Its 2020 brajmahalla, get wid the times.

Sending a .12 on gear makes you a pretty good climber you know, run of the mill sorts and can hold your own, hardly elite.

Gumby boy kingwrote:

Lol. Loads of weekend warriors have sent the beaver, many other harder .12s in Josh and other trad areas. Its 2020 brajmahalla, get wid the times 

And for every person that has sent those 12 trad routes there are literally 100x that many struggling up Double Cross and Open Book.

Lone Pinewrote:

sending 5.12a trad by working up a route and getting the moves and gear dialed is totally unimpressive. Sending 5.12a trad onsight is not. Which of the two are you referring to?

The former.  I'm a weekend warrior with a FT job, wicked back pain from scoliosis, and 3 kids.  Not sure i'd ever want to try to onsight a 5.12 trad.  If that makes all this "totally unimpressive" to the broader community or family / friends - well my intent was never to make all this sound impressive - just relatable.

5.12- on gear is about equal to a 9 minute mile, 27 pushups, or beating your uncle in croquet...maybe thats just me. 

The first 5.12s sent on gear in the US were done in the late 60s (around the time of Foops and Macabre Wall).  At that time the fastest mile was sub four minutes.  

So, historically, 5.12 on gear is roughly equivalent to a four-minute mile.

Cheers,

GO

E Mann, if 5.12 is so easy, come do the Bacher-Yerian it's only 5.11b.

Mark Frumkinwrote:

E Mann, if 5.12 is so easy, come do the Bacher-Yerian it's only 5.11b.

Thats a sport route duder

GabeOwrote:

The first 5.12s sent on gear in the US were done in the late 60s (around the time of Foops and Macabre Wall).  At that time the fastest mile was sub four minutes.  

So, historically, 5.12 on gear is roughly equivalent to a four-minute mile.

Cheers,

GO

Yeah, this is closer to the money. As a guy working towards both, climbing 5.12 is really hard. Granted I've been running for 5 years and climbing for 18 months but still, climbing is a lot less intuitive than "run more". And every kid in highschool could break 5 in the mile. I'd say 5.12 ≈ 4:30 mile. Hard, but almost anyone can do it if they are dedicated. Not sure as to the women's comparison.

Mark Frumkinwrote:

E Mann, if 5.12 is so easy, come do the Bacher-Yerian it's only 5.11b.

Don’t overestimate my cardiovascular fitness and don’t underestimate my uncles croquet skills 

Lone Pinewrote:

sending 5.12a trad by working up a route and getting the moves and gear dialed is totally unimpressive. Sending 5.12a trad onsight is not. Which of the two are you referring to?

Frank Steinwrote:

I disagree. Basically all you need is marginal but fairly specific fitness, pretty basic understanding of technique, movement and body awareness, and a good head. 

I have a hard time seeing the person you describe getting up Hidden Arch, let alone a real .12a. 

I suppose if you're talking about working something to death on TR, then going for the send, the possibilities are less limited, but imo climbing well enough to do trad .12a in decent style takes talents that most people lack. Then there's the issue of body type. Some people just aren't built for climbing. They may excel at another sport, but they'll never have a chance at leading a trad .12a.

One group of athletes who I think would be awesome climbers in a short period of time are the lighter classes of MMA fighters. Just don't try to pass them on a route.

People keep mentioning the Beaver as evidence that .12a is not much of an accomplishment. I don't have a beaver-cam (did I just say that?), but I wonder how often that gets lead by someone who's never TR'd it. Doing that doesn't define a climber as elite, but they are damn good.

OP, if your climbing well enough that your goal is realistic then you can do it, without a doubt. And there's no shame in working a route. In a sense it's a compromise of style, but the elites do it all the time too. It's called pushing your limits.

I think the whole business of comparing the nature of accomplishments between one sport and another is problematic. 

Whisk3rzz 1wrote:

I'd say 5.12 ≈ 4:30 mile. 

Lol - the female all time elite record in Colorado is 4:32 or so - just happened.  The male record went under 4 for the first time in history just a few days ago as well.

A golfer could be a 400 lb slob and have game - a runner can be genetically gifted with zero training knowledge and discipline and still beat some of the elite.  Most climbing problems are solvable with massive repetition and on top of that if you're willing to redline the risk level you can be "elite", when in fact you are only mediocre to anyone who understands what you are doing.  Your V9 in the gym doesn't mean you've freed El Cap.  In other words, comparing accomplishments such as suggested by the OP is pretty much 100% bullshit 100% of the time.  It's the ego that wants something for nothing.

So far this thread has at least shown who the egomaniacs are. 

To bill many many college kids break 4:00 mile just to qualify for NCAA championships tfrrs.org/lists/2324.html#e…  . The reason why Colorado didnt have anyone complete a 4min mile until recently is because the mile isnt actually run that much and if you wanna run fast you need to leave colorado due to altitude.  

I am short, fat and old. I am also the proverbial middle school gym class reject. Although not in the best style, I can manage a 12- trad RP and a 12+ sport RP if they suit me. I’m also employed in a rather time consuming profession.  If someone like me can manage it, literally anyone can.

I also ran a 5:24 mile in my early 20s after lots of training. 

The first 5.12s sent on gear in the US were done in the late 60s (around the time of Foops and Macabre Wall).  At that time the fastest mile was sub four minutes.  

So, historically, 5.12 on gear is roughly equivalent to a four-minute mile.

Consider the size of the field of contenders, and compare. How many rock climbers were there in the in the 60s when Stannard was advancing the standards vs the # of runners. 1 in a few thousand vs 1 in millions, basically. Seems like several orders of magnitudes difference, to me. Not equivalent at all, but that's just my take.