Renaming Negress Wall ORG

SinRopa wrote:

As I wrote earlier, if the black woman whose husband named the wall after her doesn't want to change the name, then yes, I think it's worth defending.  If she wants it renamed, then she gets to pick the new name.  Too easy.

But, if not, how would going against her wishes and disregarding her input make her "feel more comfortable in a culture that has not done a great job of this over the years?"

Well, she can call it whatever she likes, but if the centroid of opinion is that a particular name makes people uncomfortable, it should probably be changed.  Her wishes have nothing to do with how others feel, and the color of her skin is immaterial.

Look, I fully believe that if you are offended by something, it's your problem, not mine.  I would never advocate for a legal remedy to *force* a name change like this.  But I'm also a big fan of not being a dick.  If lots of people take offense at some random name I've come up with, I'm going to change it unless I've got a really good reason not to.  It's just a matter of being civil and neighborly.

ubuwrote:

Well, she can call it whatever she likes, but if the centroid of opinion is that a particular name makes people uncomfortable, it should probably be changed.  Her wishes have nothing to do with how others feel, and the color of her skin is immaterial.

Look, I fully believe that if you are offended by something, it's your problem, not mine.  I would never advocate for a legal remedy to *force* a name change like this.  But I'm also a big fan of not being a dick.  If lots of people take offense at some random name I've come up with, I'm going to change it unless I've got a really good reason not to.  It's just a matter of being civil and neighborly.

I have a feeling that if someone just talked to someone from the FA team or someone else who helped develop the wall they would be okay with changing the name. 

Josh Gibbelwrote:

My guess is almost everyone wants the name changed. The disagreement I feel is in the process.  I prefer to reach out to FA's or someone close to them and try to get someones blessing before changing it. Others would prefer that if we feel outraged for any reason we can just email a Mountain project admin and tell them how disgusted we are with the name and it should be changed immediately to whatever we want. Some will say that this one is just common sense (and I agree) but the next situation might not be.

Josh is making a good point about process.  I would feel more comfortable with Bishop locals leading this change, even though it's going to initially only be visible on Mtn Project.  I don't know about the OP but Bob Harrington chimed in on this thread and he is a very long time Bishop local.  OP, can you please contact the Bishop Climber's Coalition and see if they want to address this a a local issue?

BTW, I have learned something from this thread.  I never knew that Negress was a derogatory term.  I always thought it was an honorific from some era.

Anna Janecekwrote: After I posted on the site a series of questions, Russ Walling shares this insight:
The wall was named after the wife of Finn Newhouse, who was very much black and did lots of exploring around the area. She died in an abandoned mine shortly before the first routes went up on this wall. Her nickname was “Negress”, given to her by her husband. So I would imagine the naming is/was some sort of tribute?

This is a good reminder that these issues are much more complex than we realize. Perhaps something should be done to make this story more widely known?

Simple, call it (her first name) Newhouse wall. I think she would be honored.

And yeah, stay the fuck out of abandoned mines.

FrankPSwrote: It's so trendy to be offended. And if you aren't offended, you're a racist, sexist, xenophobe or homophobe.

Announcing that you are offended shows that you are a virtuous person.

It's not enough just to be offended. You must let everyone know. Shout it out.

And if you don't agree it's offensive, you should be pilloried, marginalized and silenced.  The mob knows best.

If you're on the fence about it, not sure if you're offended, you're wrong. The mob will let you know.

If you are one of the "victims" of the offense, but you're not offended, you are wrong and a phony. A traitor to your race.

I understand the very first sentence in your response (but don't really agree with the rest of what you've said).  It does at times appear that way.  However, if you consider that "trendy" is also "timely", then perhaps you can better understand the source and current energy of this movement.  Also keep in mind that what we are all now witnessing is an outpouring of emotion from decades of, to put it real mildly, being stepped on and grievances ignored.  To use a metaphor, the dam has broken so what was previously an easily ignored trickle is now an impossible to miss flood.  I would argue that it's not a trend; it's a historical event. 

I believe in the social changes that people are calling for.  Having said that, like with any big movement, there's always going to be outliers who want to attack everything.  Look at the Cultural Revolution in China where people with no understanding of history were in charge of rewriting it. I believe that some are too excited and distracted by the physical acts of erasing prior history.  For some, the symbolism seems to be very important.  However, it also strikes me a straw man that it's distracting from the far more important issue of effecting social change.  Still, I'm not going to judge since I haven't experienced what they have.  If I had, maybe I'd feel the exact same way.  

As I scroll through this thread, I was only able to find mostly white and mostly male faces. I wanted to share a quote from Gary Chambers Jr.

"Slavery, Jim Crow, women's rights, gay rights, civil rights, and every other progressive thing in America, its always been white men that stand in the way of progress." While I don't want to equate changing climbing names to these movements, I still think its important to recognize we are trying to progress the culture of climbing to be more inclusive. And it seems that the people who are standing in the way are mainly white male climbers.

It is true that the POWER to change the route sits with the locals, the climber who did the FA, and/or the guide book author. However, the WILL TO CHANGE the name comes from climbers. If those in power don't agree, that does not mean they are right - it means we need to keep making our voices heard and stand up for what is right.

If your goal is to make climbing an inclusive sport, you need to respect the voices Black people and POC, not the people who developed these routes nor those who live in the town in which the route resides. 

If your goal is not to make climbing an inclusive sport, then I would agree with FrankPS in saying you are a "racist, sexist, xenophobe or homophobe." You cannot be on the fence when it comes to racism. You are either racist or antiracist.

FrankPSwrote: It's so trendy to be offended. And if you aren't offended, you're a racist, sexist, xenophobe or homophobe.

Announcing that you are offended shows that you are a virtuous person.

It's not enough just to be offended. You must let everyone know. Shout it out.

And if you don't agree it's offensive, you should be pilloried, marginalized and silenced.  The mob knows best.

If you're on the fence about it, not sure if you're offended, you're wrong. The mob will let you know.

If you are one of the "victims" of the offense, but you're not offended, you are wrong and a phony. A traitor to your race.

Why don't we just change it to "Cracker Wall" and then everyone will be happy? You get to have offensive names but they have to only make fun of white people.

:P

Someday, I pray, you will learn to walk in the shoes of the historically oppressed, instead of arguing the oppression should continue in thread after thread after thread simply because the oppression has no effect on you.

You'll be a better man for it, Frank.

Of course, you will also flag this post because you are offended.

Route names on public lands should follow the same guidelines of any public forum, much like user names in chat forums.  Because you established the route, doesn’t mean the route name can be as offensive, racist, or sexist as you are as an individual.  If the name doesn’t stand in the community, it needs to be changed.  The name change should come from whoever established the route and when not possible, the community can decide by vote.  I hope we don't end up with 50+ routes names climby McClimber420-69.

As a black climber, if someone invited me to climb a wall named Negress, I wouldn't go. I'd even question their friendship a little after wondering why they didn't wonder what an odd situation that is. 

Chris Bartonwrote: Route names on public lands should follow the same guidelines of any public forum, much like user names in chat forums.  Because you established the route, doesn’t mean the route name can be as offensive, racist, or sexist as you are as an individual.  If the name doesn’t stand in the community, it needs to be changed.  The name change should come from whoever established the route and when not possible, the community can decide by vote.  I hope we don't end up with 50+ routes names climby McClimber420-69.

 I agree. This is how I think it should work.  If an individual thinks a name is unacceptable they will alert the local climbing organization.  The climbing organization will look into it and if they agree that it is problematic they should look into changing it.  The FA should always be given an opportunity to rename the route.  If the FA cannot be found I think that it should pass to someone who knew the FA such as a climbing partner, or child, ect.  If neither option will work and the name is just too terrible to ignore it should be brought to the "community" to decide. I would consider "The Community" to be the local climbing organization.  I do not like the idea of climbers from one state changing the names of routes of another state. If the community votes to change the name a record of the old name should be kept. Even if it is a small foot note on MP or in the back of the climbing guide.  

How many of y’all are comfortable addressing the next black woman you meet as “negress”? How’s that for a litmus test?

 I do not like the idea of climbers from one state changing the names of routes of another state

Now that you mention it, this could be fun. Rename every route in Colorado, every month. Keep it fresh!

RIP Tradibanwrote:

(1)Lol what? (2)Now this is a sexism argument? (3)You realize you responded to a woman right? (4)#mansplaining

(1) What?
(2) Is it? (I think think you meant this to be a declarative statement. In which case, I'm open to hearing your argument as to the sexist nature of the argument)
(3) Yup.
(4) #redherring

Dave K wrote:

Are you trying to strip the humanity from a very much black woman?

Nope. Are you under the impression that the pointing out a possible interpretation of a quoted text as dehumanizing of the text's subject is the same thing as dehumanizing the quoted text's subject? Or even that pointing out something is paramount to believing the thing that was pointed out?

Salém Jwrote: As a black climber, if someone invited me to climb a wall named Negress, I wouldn't go. I'd even question their friendship a little after wondering why they didn't wonder what an odd situation that is. 

Would you have wondered what the story was behind the name or is the word Negress defacto racist and irredeemable? I know I have a more positive reaction to the name hearing the back story. It opens up the possibility for a need for a more subtle read. Considering the FA's relationship, the shock value of the name was probably partially so people would take a closer look and think about their reaction..

M Spraguewrote:

Would you have wondered what the story was behind the name or is the word Negress defacto racist and irredeemable? I know I have a more positive reaction to the name hearing the back story. It opens up the possibility for a need for a more subtle read. Considering the FA's relationship, the shock value of the name was probably partially so people would take a closer look and think about their reaction..

When I hear racial epithets I don't think hmm maybe there's some neat back story to this

How would people feel if this were a climbing gym named the Negress? Would you invite your friends there? First time climbers? First time climbers of color? I know that I wouldn’t feel comfortable with it. Even with a mildly acceptable backstory. 

Also, for everyone saying they don't know the connotations about Negress- It's just the feminine version of Negro. I think it's pretty widely accepted that calling someone a Negro is highly offensive and not ok...

Historically the word word "negress" meant black woman or girl and it was not offensive.  Neither was the bronze sculpture titled "Negress".  Some dictionaries say the word is usually offensive.  That would no doubt apply to modern times where the word negro is rarely used, even though Martin Luther King commonly used that word in the 1960s.  All this hoopla over renaming routes or cliffs that have names that may be racist, isn't really about doing what will help black people or other minorities.  It's about making white people feel better.  It's a way to soothe their guilt over fact that much of our white race in America is at the forefront of being the world's biggest piece of shit when it comes to racism, excessive wealth, militarism, etc.

This article will hopefully shed some light on how black people feel about removing confederate statues and movies like "Gone With The Wind".  It's at the very bottom of their list of things that need to be done.  In fact, its not their list Period!

https://www.rt.com/usa/492937-bet-founder-mocks-woke-apologists-whiteness/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Email

The article states:  "Painfully woke white people yanking TV shows off the air and tearing down statues aren’t helping the racial justice cause, according to the founder of Black Entertainment Television. He says black people “laugh at” these displays.  Removing Confederate statues does nothing for black people, billionaire TV magnate Robert Johnson told Fox News on Wednesday. “It’s not going to give a kid whose parents can’t afford college, money to go to college. It’s not going to close the labor gap…and it’s not going to take people off welfare or food stamps.”Johnson took a similarly dim view of removing shows like “The Dukes of Hazzard” or films like “Gone with the Wind” from circulation and firing professors for saying “all lives matter” instead of “black lives matter,” suggesting these moves are “an attempt by white Americans to assuage guilt by doing things that make them feel good” and don’t help black people at all.
“Black people laugh at white people who do this,” the BET founder said, pointing out that black viewers likely made up a significant portion of the viewing audiences of the canceled shows because “they watch more TV.”
Calling performative apologetics from white celebrities on social media “the silliest expression of white privilege that exists in this country,” Johnson suggested privileged white people instead ask black people what they want and listen to their responses. “Embrace being white and do the right thing, and then you don’t have to worry about being sad because you’re white!”
“White Americans seem to think that if they just do sort of emotionally or drastic things that black people are going to say ‘Oh my god, white people love us because they took down a statue of Stonewall Jackson’,” Johnson said before repurposing a famous quote from the now-verboten Gone with the Wind: “Frankly, black people don’t give a damn.”

You can continue to waste your time all day on MP, talking about this subject and trying to get routes renamed or you can pull your thumb out of your ass and actually do something that will make a difference.  There is no shortage of productive things to do, that will help communities of color, the entire working class and the planet.

Mark Rolofsonwrote: Historically the word word "negress" meant black woman or girl and it was not offensive.  Neither was the bronze sculpture titled "Negress".  Some dictionaries say the word is usually offensive.  That would no doubt apply to modern times where the word negro is rarely used, even though Martin Luther King commonly used that word in the 1960s.  All this hoopla over renaming routes or cliffs that have names that may be racist, isn't really about doing what will help black people or other minorities.  It's about making white people feel better.  It's a way to soothe their guilt over fact that much of our white race in America is at the forefront of being the world's biggest piece of shit when it comes to racism, excessive wealth, militarism, etc.

This article will hopefully shed some light on how black people feel about removing confederate statues and movies like "Gone With The Wind".  It's at the very bottom of their list of things that need to be done.  In fact, its not their list Period!

https://www.rt.com/usa/492937-bet-founder-mocks-woke-apologists-whiteness/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Email

The article states:  "Painfully woke white people yanking TV shows off the air and tearing down statues aren’t helping the racial justice cause, according to the founder of Black Entertainment Television. He says black people “laugh at” these displays.  Removing Confederate statues does nothing for black people, billionaire TV magnate Robert Johnson told Fox News on Wednesday. “It’s not going to give a kid whose parents can’t afford college, money to go to college. It’s not going to close the labor gap…and it’s not going to take people off welfare or food stamps.”Johnson took a similarly dim view of removing shows like “The Dukes of Hazzard” or films like “Gone with the Wind” from circulation and firing professors for saying “all lives matter” instead of “black lives matter,” suggesting these moves are “an attempt by white Americans to assuage guilt by doing things that make them feel good” and don’t help black people at all.
“Black people laugh at white people who do this,” the BET founder said, pointing out that black viewers likely made up a significant portion of the viewing audiences of the canceled shows because “they watch more TV.”
Calling performative apologetics from white celebrities on social media “the silliest expression of white privilege that exists in this country,” Johnson suggested privileged white people instead ask black people what they want and listen to their responses. “Embrace being white and do the right thing, and then you don’t have to worry about being sad because you’re white!”
“White Americans seem to think that if they just do sort of emotionally or drastic things that black people are going to say ‘Oh my god, white people love us because they took down a statue of Stonewall Jackson’,” Johnson said before repurposing a famous quote from the now-verboten Gone with the Wind: “Frankly, black people don’t give a damn.”

You can continue to waste your time all day on MP, talking about this subject and trying to get routes renamed or you can pull your thumb out of your ass and actually do something that will make a difference.  There is no shortage of productive things to do, that will help communities of color, the entire working class and the planet.

One article with one black person's point of view does not represent "how black people feel" about anything. Let's rename routes that make people feel unwelcome, excluded, scared, and hated AND let's work on other angles of systemic change that close gaps in education, job opportunities, wealth, incarceration statistics. It's not an either/or. What makes this topic a thing that you can "waste your time all day on MP" on is posts like yours that require responses so that all black and POC climbers don't think that the climbing community is a bunch of white folks from Boulder who somehow, incredibly, seem to feel entitled to explain how all black people feel. -Anne Mariah-

I don't know what the proper mechanics of changing an offensive route name are, but you sure don't want to take the issue to the Mountain Project admins.

A woman I know suggested a change to a racist route name and she got this response from the (anonymous and obviously cowardly) "volunteer" who responds to such requests:
"Your request to change historical names because you think they have an offensive word in them is dumb. You are hypersensitive and one of the problems with society.
You should switch your time to something productive to climbing. or you can maintain course and contact Webster dictionary and have them remove all “potentially’ offensive words to the English language so no one can ever potentially be offended by anything."

It wasn't this shitty under REI's ownership, was it?