Large Groups During COVID

Boise is spiking now, 18-29 year olds. The bars opened...the bars are now shut. Oops.

Even without a pandemic I would be annoyed with a large group barging into an already occupied small belay spot.  How hard is it to give people some space and spread out a bit?  Doesn’t seem that it was in the case cited by the original poster.  

Frank Steinwrote: Even worse, instead of spreading out, these groups always seemed to roll up as a unit at an already occupied belay area, dropping their crap everywhere, and generally milling around with zero heed to any type of social distancing from others already present.

Irritating indeed, though you could also look at it as--at least they ARE staying clumped together, so it's easier to avoid them. If they did spread out (and were infectious), it may be worse. You lose either way?! ;-)

George Perkins wrote: You can send the large groups on their way elsewhere by bringing some or all of the following: aggressive off-leash dogs, small children, blasting loud music, smoking (tobacco or pot, though this puts you at elevated Covid risk), over-the-top hitting on any young women in the group (works well if you're a middle-aged dude), profanity-laced wobblers, and general machismo.

Children might work. The rest? Probably not so much. The largest group was drinking, smoking and macho shit spraying non-stop. There were also at least 5 off-leash dogs associated with them. I suppose that I need to find a couple of screaming toddlers to borrow, no?

Heck, contrary to other recent threads, I’m planting poison ivy...

I am just impressed that one person has that many climbing friends and they all showed up

Frank Steinwrote:

That is in an entire canyon with over 200 routes. I see nothing wrong with climbing if done discretely. 9 folks spread out over an entire canyon in four distinct parties hardly qualifies as a posse. A single group of 10 rolling up to an occupied belay platform probably qualifies as a posse. 

Still, you have the option to leave, yes? When presented with choice to leave and climb another day or stay to climb and possibly catch Covid what would you do? I know I’d probably move on, I can always climb another day somewhere without too many people around, safety first.

I wonder how many here complaining about the large crowds were the ones saying before that it was ok to go climbing during the shutdown,
and bragging how they were getting out to remote areas?

JSchultzwrote: I don't recall where I heard the following quote but it's by far the best way to handle this. I'm paraphrasing and adding a little here but the message remains the same. Personal responsibility.

If you decide to break quarantine and go out into the public amidst the pandemic and you catch COVID it's your fault. That goes for everybody, everywhere, all the time (unless there's laws passed enforcing quarantine). You cannot control other people. If you are so worried about catching it then stay home, or expect to encounter groups of people who don't share your opinion or give a shit about where you draw the line. If there's too many people around for your personal liking, then leave. There's no dibbs, there's no "we were here first", there's no "you can't climb here because I say the crag limit has been met." You have the right to leave.

I doubt this concept gains any traction because personal responsibility is almost completely lost on society these days.

I think there's a point to this insofar as personal risk management necessarily entails taking a realistic view of what others' behaviors will be and the factors that may be outside your control.

That said, I don't see how this extends to believing that people shouldn't express their own views on what collective risk management ought to look like, try to persuade others to act in ways more conducive to sustainable collective risk management, and (in the case of governments and RCA's) make policy toward this end where applicable. The idea that personal responsibility means not attempting to do anything to shape your social world into the kind of community you feel comfortable in and happy belonging to seems like a total strawman.

Cosmiccragsman AKA Dwainwrote: I wonder how many here complaining about the large crowds were the ones saying before that it was ok to go climbing during the shutdown,
and bragging how they were getting out to remote areas?

I was, and I still am (minus the bragging). There was and is a way to go about climbing responsibly. There is no need to be an idiot. 

Fehim Hasecicwrote:

Still, you have the option to leave, yes? When presented with choice to leave and climb another day or stay to climb and possibly catch Covid what would you do? I know I’d probably move on, I can always climb another day somewhere without too many people around, safety first.

I am not too worried about catching COVID myself. I am worried about the pandemic lasting longer than it has to because people are irresponsible idiots. I also worry that land managers will restrict access due to violation of public health orders. Didn’t you guys just experience something like that in Clear Creek County?  I mean hell, the EU just reopened for tourism, but banned Americans because we are a such a shitshow. 

 The Cliffs that Crag Vermont manages we have a recommended number of parties and a sign in sheet to indicate where you're headed. So by looking at the sign-in sheet you can tell how many people are there for the most part and whether they're looking for the hard routes or the easy routes and then you can always go someplace else if you choose to. I have definitely seen people turn around at the parking lot because it look too full. 

Etha Williamswrote:

"shape your social world into the kind of community you feel comfortable in"

I will engage a bit. To clarify I'm not trying to take this quote out of context, and I'm not trolling.

I interpret your quote as "trying to get others to follow the complex set of rules set forth by yourself that would create your ideal social world and community" which will only result in failure because the ideal social world and community is completely subjective and personal. There's always going to be people (or peoples) that disagree with your set of rules, or have their own set of rules some of which contradict with yours. Relating this to COVID- if you are truly dead-set on not getting it-  are you going to count on other people not catching it and spreading it to you?  That's risky at best in my view. If "shaping your social world into the kind of community you feel comfortable in" means not getting COVID you better handle that yourself. If the crag gets to busy such that your social world rules are offended your only effective way to immediately re-align the situation with those rules is to leave.

JSchultzwrote: I don't recall where I heard the following quote but it's by far the best way to handle this. I'm paraphrasing and adding a little here but the message remains the same. Personal responsibility.

If you decide to break quarantine and go out into the public amidst the pandemic and you catch COVID it's your fault. That goes for everybody, everywhere, all the time (unless there's laws passed enforcing quarantine). You cannot control other people. If you are so worried about catching it then stay home, or expect to encounter groups of people who don't share your opinion or give a shit about where you draw the line. If there's too many people around for your personal liking, then leave. There's no dibbs, there's no "we were here first", there's no "you can't climb here because I say the crag limit has been met." You have the right to leave.

I doubt this concept gains any traction because personal responsibility is almost completely lost on society these days.

This is based on a complete strawman. There is not and never has been a quarantine. There were various stay-at-home orders, many of which wouldn't have included local cragging.

As it stands now, the orders are about social distancing, and the concern among most the relatively healthy, relatively young crowd on MP probably isn't about getting sick themselves and whose fault it is. The entire point of social distancing IS NOT preventing ALL illness. It's about decreasing and managing spread.

That's why you wear a facemask to the store and it's why you should give people space at the crag - unless you're a selfish asshole.

JSchultzwrote:

If the crag gets to busy such that your social world rules are offended your only effective way to immediately re-align the situation with those rules is to leave.

Certainly what you say here is true. However, it is a little tough to just up and leave when you have a climber and gear on a route, and a large group all of the sudden decides to join you. It also does not change the fact that rolling with a dozen of your closest friends is kind of bad form these days. 

JSchultzwrote:

I will engage a bit. To clarify I'm not trying to take this quote out of context, and I'm not trolling.

I interpret your quote as "trying to get others to follow the complex set of rules set forth by yourself that would create your ideal social world and community" which will only result in failure because the ideal social world and community is completely subjective and personal. There's always going to be people (or peoples) that disagree with your set of rules, or have their own set of rules some of which contradict with yours. Relating this to COVID- if you are truly dead-set on not getting it-  are you going to count on other people not catching it and spreading it to you?  That's risky at best in my view. If "shaping your social world into the kind of community you feel comfortable in" means not getting COVID you better handle that yourself. If the crag gets to busy such that your social world rules are offended your only effective way to immediately re-align the situation with those rules is to leave.

I would say more like "trying to get others to agree with the value underlying the rules you're proposing, and change the principles undergirding their behavior to be more closely aligned with them."

Yes, if you're thinking in absolute terms, the only way to truly ensure you (almost certainly) won't catch covid would be not to go out at all. But if you believe it would be better for you and your community if people modified their actions in such a way that you could go out and expect to face a significantly lower risk, then I don't see voicing this opinion as fundamentally in contradiction with taking personal responsibility.

Some somewhat analogous examples: 

• If you are truly dead-set on not getting in a car accident, are you going to count on other people not driving recklessly?
• If you are truly dead-set on not getting hit by rockfall, are you going to count on other people not pulling rocks off the cliff?
• If you are truly dead-set on not being the victim of violent crime, are you going to count on other people not to commit it?

I think we can all agree that personal risk management plays a part in any decision regarding these risks, but also that we would all prefer that society use a variety of means to reduce the incidence of the negative behavior so that people do not have to take as extreme measures to protect themselves. The rockfall one is maybe the most nebulous, but even there, I think most of us would feel that someone climbing recklessly on a route with loose rock where other parties are present should be educated about the risk they're posing to others and encouraged to climb more carefully.

I am going to add in here. I work at a gym in Utah and we tell everyone who comes in to please social distance and even have reminders up and things around the facility asking people to essentially care. I see that about 1 in 30 people actually care the rest act like covid never even happened or it is a distant memory. When I go climbing I see this same kind of actions from other climbers. Luckily I haven't gone to places where very many gumbies go to climb, so the climbers there are more courteous and respect other peoples distance. But that being said there are normally still groups of people who get together (5-10) people and go climbing and set up like 5 different ropes on climbs on the way to where I am climbing and I have to go past them and they do not care whatsoever about any type of social distancing. I agree that people should care and go out in smaller groups but that just isn't a realistic expectation to set on people. To everyone out there who does try to social distance and are responsible when climbing a crag with other groups thank you, I know that both me and my climbing partner greatly appreciate it.