Renaming Negress Wall ORG

Intent gets more to the heart of the matter. It is harder for other people to feel control of though.

I agree with renaming that wall, but I just wonder how far will this go? Will all routes that reference drugs, sex, or violence have to be renamed eventually as well?

Josh Gibbelwrote: I agree with renaming that wall, but I just wonder how far will this go? Will all routes that reference drugs, sex, or violence have to be renamed eventually as well?

I think there's a significant difference between routes/areas that are demeaning to the personhood of marginalized people like "Negress wall" and "Limp Wristed Faggot" and routes that are just crude/ rude.  Like  calling a route "600 pounds of blue whale jizz" or  "a forehead mounted dildo" (those last two are just made up examples)   doesn't directly attack any group, while "Black Girls in Heat" does. Of course there are going to be edge cases and grey areas, but overall the two types are pretty distinct. 

I can’t believe things have come to this

Chiming in to agree that the wall should absolutely be renamed. Regardless of origin or intent, the word is widely considered offensive and has no place in our sport if our goal is to foster inclusive community. Assuming that Finn Newhouse did in fact name the wall in remembrance of his wife, maybe we can name it after her?

Change it. 

There's nothing wrong with having rock climbing route names that are offensive. Never has been wrong. Naming routes bad names has been a huge and beautiful part of our history. If you don't like the name of a route that someone else put up, then maybe don't climb it. Or maybe ignore the name? Or maybe contact the developer personally and ask them about it. I don't like this whole public shaming thing and name changing thing. So many people are acting like entitled, spoiled brats. So many people are acting like they know so much about everything, because they saw the news or read it online. Such a travesty. 

David LeBaronwrote: There's nothing wrong with having rock climbing route names that are offensive. Never has been wrong. Naming routes bad names has been a huge and beautiful part of our history. If you don't like the name of a route that someone else put up, then maybe don't climb it. Or maybe ignore the name? Or maybe contact the developer personally and ask them about it. I don't like this whole public shaming thing and name changing thing. So many people are acting like entitled, spoiled brats. So many people are acting like they know so much about everything, because they saw the news or read it online. Such a travesty. 

Lol, Calling racism "Beautiful". Nice.

James Maltmanwrote:

I think there's a significant difference between routes/areas that are demeaning to the personhood of marginalized people like "Negress wall" and "Limp Wristed Faggot" and routes that are just crude/ rude.  Like  calling a route "600 pounds of blue whale jizz" or  "a forehead mounted dildo" (those last two are just made up examples)   doesn't directly attack any group, while "Black Girls in Heat" does. Of course there are going to be edge cases and grey areas, but overall the two types are pretty distinct. 

I think the grey area is larger than you may think. I know many Christians who would be offended by the idea of the use of Jesus in the name of a route. Same with Buddha.  Many people have lost loved ones and struggle with addiction. I know a lot of people who would not want their children to know the names of a lot of the more vulgar route names. If inclusiveness is the goal how much do we change things. Obviously racist names should be changed but what if Christian climbing groups start petitioning for all routes that have Jesus in the name changed. What if an AA climbing group wants routes referencing alcohol changed? I’m just curious as climbing becomes more popular how much it will have to change to be inclusive.

David LeBaronwrote: There's nothing wrong with having rock climbing route names that are offensive. Never has been wrong. Naming routes bad names has been a huge and beautiful part of our history. If you don't like the name of a route that someone else put up, then maybe don't climb it. Or maybe ignore the name? Or maybe contact the developer personally and ask them about it. I don't like this whole public shaming thing and name changing thing. So many people are acting like entitled, spoiled brats. So many people are acting like they know so much about everything, because they saw the news or read it online. Such a travesty. 

Can't help but read this in the voice of a cheeto.

There's a lot wrong with offensive names. Has always been wrong. It's not a part of the history that we should continue, same as slashing tires and shitting on ropes shouldn't continue. If you like the name of a route, maybe you should write it on a piece of tape and put it over the new name when the new guidebook comes out. I don't like this whole overt racism and sexism thing. So many people are acting like privileged, callous asses. So many people are acting like they know so much about everything, because they blindly stick to tradition and refuse to grapple with a difficult topic. Such a travesty.

I hope “Fear of a Black Planet” can stay unchanged. 

Josh Gibbelwrote:

I think the grey area is larger than you may think. I know many Christians who would be offended by the idea of the use of Jesus in the name of a route. Same with Buddha.  Many people have lost loved ones and struggle with addiction. I know a lot of people who would not want their children to know the names of a lot of the more vulgar route names. If inclusiveness is the goal how much do we change things. Obviously racist names should be changed but what if Christian climbing groups start petitioning for all routes that have Jesus in the name changed. What if an AA climbing group wants routes referencing alcohol changed? I’m just curious as climbing becomes more popular how much it will have to change to be inclusive.

Yeah totally, I think those are valid questions. I guess what I'm saying is that the like bright line is protecting marginalized groups, Names that are racist/ homophobic/mysogenistic, etc need to go. Past those, yeah I think that is an interesting/important discussion to have, but in a way feel like almost a separate discussion about where climbing's going as it becomes mainstream, rather than making it less racist, if that makes sense?

Bob Harringtonwrote: I hope “Fear of a Black Planet” can stay unchanged. 

I can't see why anyone would want to change the name of a route named after a Public Enemy album.  

Or a route named after the great Godfather of Soul.  I was just listening to "Sex Machine" yesterday on my hike.  Gave me a lot of energy!  What better exhortation could you have for a climb than "Get on up".

David LeBaronwrote: There's nothing wrong with having rock climbing route names that are offensive. Never has been wrong. Naming routes bad names has been a huge and beautiful part of our history. If you don't like the name of a route that someone else put up, then maybe don't climb it. Or maybe ignore the name? Or maybe contact the developer personally and ask them about it. I don't like this whole public shaming thing and name changing thing. So many people are acting like entitled, spoiled brats. So many people are acting like they know so much about everything, because they saw the news or read it online. Such a travesty. 

Agreed

James Maltmanwrote:

Yeah totally, I think those are valid questions. I guess what I'm saying is that the like bright line is protecting marginalized groups, Names that are racist/ homophobic/mysogenistic, etc need to go. Past those, yeah I think that is an interesting/important discussion to have, but in a way feel like almost a separate discussion about where climbing's going as it becomes mainstream, rather than making it less racist, if that makes sense?

I understand and largely agree with what you are saying. I'm just concerned about setting a precedent by saying that if a person thinks a name is offensive they can go onto a forum and then decide to rename it. It's like when the government wanted apple to break into those terrorists iphones. If you do something once that means you can do it again, possibly for a completely different reason. I personally feel more comfortable about contacting first ascentionists or abbreviating names. 

Being able to name a route what you please is absolutely the same as freedom of speech. Wether it be offensive, derogatory or in harmony with peoples beliefs, it’s an integral part of our freedom of expression. And others are welcome to be offended or in harmony. But changing the authors words, in most cases, is deemed more offensive than the author. 

David LeBaronwrote: Being able to name a route what you please is absolutely the same as freedom of speech. Wether it be offensive, derogatory or in harmony with peoples beliefs, it’s an integral part of our freedom of expression. And others are welcome to be offended or in harmony. But changing the authors words, in most cases, is deemed more offensive than the author. 

Freedom of speech is about government suppression of speech. As private citizens and organizations, we're well within our rights to decide to change what we call routes. In fact, by your logic, one could argue that its a suppression of free speech not to allow a guidebook author, or community to change what they name things.

Many climbers enjoy "pushing the limits", being nonconventional, defying authority, etc.
"Non-politically correct" route names can be a part of that.
Here's a 28 page thread from 2016 which mentions a few:

> frank minunni · Feb 5, 2016 · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 94

> My partner, Mike Freeman, who is black and I put up a couple of routes in the 80s with PC incorrect names.

> One is Blackboys and Backsliders (I'm an ex born again Christian) and Greaseballs and Jungle Bunnies (I'm Italian).

> We were poking fun at ourselves.

> Are we now supposed to change the names to be politically correct?

> I don't think so. I still find the names amusing.

> Unless you know what was going through the first ascentionist's head at the time, you can't really know what the name meant.

(route-name-negro-girls)

Of course any guidebook (or website) editor may choose to change route names which they can't stand.
Just don't expect to somehow rewrite history in the process.

Absolutely agree, negress wall should be renamed. So should yellow peril. It feels to me an issue of common sense.