HELP! Renaming Texas 'subtle racism' Route

Astrid Rey wrote:

Here we go with the gaslighting. Once again they put the burden on POC to prove it because they can't make the effort to use google.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flip&page=3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Filipino_sentiment --- The term was allegedly an acronym for "fucking little island people"

Why do you think the footwear is called that? People need to read and understand that racism is everywhere.

Your sole addition to MP is to troll and try to stir up shit when there is plenty?

Auden Alsop wrote:

... I'm not sure if I'm missing something here?

Troll account made with an email from a disposable address site 

Stephen L wrote: Apparently there’s actually a relatively positive history/story surrounding Aunt Jemima, who was a real person who made award winning pancakes. It’s a neat story and worth researching. 

That’s not what I’ve heard at all.

Aunt Jemima is a minstrel show character first played by a white man in black face. It became a well known character in the 19th century based on the Mammy stereotype of black women. The original owners of the brand created their Aunt Jemima character based on that well known character. The next owner then hired a black woman named Nancy Green to become their “Aunt Jemima” as a salesperson.

Nancy Green was born a slave, and despite the fame she gained, lived in a segregated world until she died and was buried in segregated cemetery with a headstone that just read, “291”. All evidence points to her never becoming wealthy as a result of her work.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kentucky.com/opinion/op-ed/article243794117.html

https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/mammies/

Here's the thing about your post on the boulder problem named "flip-flop shenanigans." Astrid- you could have used more clearity and better language to inform us that flip is viewed as a pejorative and racist term to some Filipinos. If you want to confront others on your perception of their use of language, your communication and language also could stand some improvements.

This isn't about what you have assumed it is.
You are finding what you are looking for.
​​​​​
My last name is Heller...a large part of it "hell" is used as a profane word by most. Many people in my life have been offened by even saying it. It actually means "brighter, or lighter." God help me, God help us.

Astrid Rey wrote: How convenient it is that these random posters show up and say they are POC and that they also agree with the old white men. Marcelo, you don't have to acknowledge fake accounts

Says the person with a two-week old account.

Why don't you believe the "POC" when they speak? You automatically assume they are fake?

You could have asked the boulder problem namer/ route poster for clarification about what their intentions were...
 
AND I didn't delete that- an admin must have-
Again with your assuming and finding what you look for ... strange times indeed

Astrid Rey wrote:

Why do you think a woman on the internet would want to hide her email from creepy admins that check it?

I know where this is going, another POC silenced for speaking out and attempting to educate.

"Astrid Rey wrote:It is a small thing but we should change it if people do not like it. I have thought about this and it is true that they are not pies. Eskimo Bar is a better name. "

First post of the account

Past User wrote: You could have asked the boulder problem namer/ route poster for clarification about what their intentions were...

My impression with most of this is that intentions do not matter.  Not stating my opinion one way or the other, just interpreting most of what I am hearing.  

Eric Carlos wrote:

My impression with most of this is that intentions do not matter.  Not stating my opinion one way or the other, just interpreting most of what I am hearing.  

You might have just exactly identified the divisive issue here- folks who feel strongly intentions are what matters and folks who feel  strongly language itself is what matters. 

As usual for me I try to stay in the middle of the poles.

"culture is your operating system"

Finally Astrid- I didn't post that about my name to in any way suggest I feel like a victim. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I posted it to show similar/ identical words (which are audible vibrations produced by muscles in our larynx) in fact do emerge simultaneously in different cultures with entirety different meanings. Who is right and who is wrong....could this perhaps be sorted out using the guttural utterer's intentions?

If you really want to be a peaceful informant, please stop twisting timelines to support your biases and support your assumptions. 

Alec O wrote:

I think this article, written by a black food writer, does a really nice job of explaining the problem with "Aunt Jemima," and other similar brand characters: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/aunt-jemima-uncle-ben-deserve-retirement-they-re-racist-myths-ncna1231623

Essentially, it is part of a "Lost Cause" narrative that slavery was good for slaves and black people should be in the kitchen making flapjacks for their white owners. It's subtle, and almost unnoticeable to modern people, especially those of us who are not from the South.

Very interesting read.  Thanks for that.

Past User wrote:

You might have just exactly identified the divisive issue here- folks who feel strongly intentions are what matters and folks who feel  strongly language itself is what matters. 

As usual for me I try to stay in the middle of the poles.

"culture is your operating system"

When you hurt someone accidentally, do you stop what you’re doing and apologize? Or just keep doing it anyway because you never meant to hurt them?

Change “language” to “consequence” in your sentence and I think it’ll be a lot more accurate.

​When I hurt someone accidentally I ​​​​definitely apologise.

The simple fact is that nobody advocating for changing route names actually cares about ending racism and generating equality. All of this is purely virtue signaling and outrage culture that makes people think that they're generating real change in society. Getting mad about flip-flops? Really? Can we not use the word backflip anymore? If anybody in this thread actually cared about ending racism, rather then promoting cancel culture, they would realize that Uncle Ben, Aunt Jemima, Mrs. Butterworth, Little Debbie, Wendy, the fucking Keebler Elf, etc.,  are all different types of mascots that are used to promote brands that are not inherently racist. Do you really think Betty Crocker was a real person? She was a caricature of a white woman. A quick search of MP shows this route ( mountainproject.com/route/1…) that has a clear-cut racial slur against white people in it's name. If you were actually serious about 'ending racism' by changing names of routes, where is the outrage against that? Also Astrid, using urban dictionary to support your argument is objectively hilarious to anybody with a rational brain.

Best,
RIP Tradiban

Edit: Colonel Sanders, Captain Crunch, Rice Krispy Treat dudes, Big Boy, Little Caesar, Sun-Made Raisin Lady, Chiquita Banana Lady, Quaker Oats Man, Lucky Charms Man  

D Graham (OP),

Here are some names and websites that may help you track down the FA/namer. I would be interested to hear the history of the names for almost all of these routes.

I would be surprised and disappointed if 'Aunt Jamima V0' was named that for any reason other than a cheap "Jam" pun or maybe some commentary on the route being sticky?

I apologize in advance for roping these folks into this debacle, but hopefully this can help smooth things out.

> *** 1st Hand Historical Account (written in 2018 by Joseph L Phillips) ***

> Dr Topo - Rogers Park Topo PDF
> Bloody Flapper

> James Harrison - 1998 Roger's Park guidebook author - most likely your best bet for a reliable source-of-truth / point-in-the-right-direction

> Russell Tulloch - discovered the cliff band by accident while camping above and ambling with the aim of a drunken piss
> Joey Phillips (Joseph L. Phillips -- smokeymon88@yahoo.com - "tirelessly laid the stone trail that traces the cliff band." 
> John Hogge - Austin climbing guidebook author, was climbing at Roger's at least as early as 1998.

I'd be especially eager to learn more of the history of Jaws, Fire in the Belly, Zen. These problems were some of the first I ever obsessed over, and they have a very special place in my heart. I'm still looking forward to the day I send Zen.

It would also be fun trivia to know exactly where Russell stepped off the cliff.

For the record: I agree with the following sentiments
> This is not a big deal worth getting upset and argumentative over. It's a 2-star, 4meter tall V0 with a racially charged, not inherently racist, name.
> 'Martin Luther Cling' is somewhat clever climbing pun, but the only connection this route history has that would invite a natural reference to MLK is the controversial interpretation of 'Aunt Jamima', so this name change could easily be construed as solidifying any potential to perceive subtle racism imbued in the 'Aunt Jamima' name.
> Racism is bad.
> The FA has earned the honor of proposing/establishing a name for the climb. The general public has the right to decide if that's what they want to call it or not in common parlance.
> Call it whatever you want, as long as the intent is to clearly and enjoyably communicate. Call yourself an asshole if you enjoy communicating an insensitivity to racial oppression and injustice.

Here are some names I'm suggesting as a white male who grew up in DFW and did not FA this climb, in case they appeal to the FA'er and/or general public:

Honoring Black females important to Texas history:
- Barnstormin' Brave Bessie (Bessie Coleman. Wow just wow. Daughter of Texas sharecroppers. African-American/Native American descent, became a pilot -- in 1921! Amazing.)
- Eberly's Cannon Blast (Holy shit what a badass. She bested Sam Houston and saved Austin as Texas's capital! Could be fun to claim [facetiously] that the jug/jam hole at 3m high is from a cannon-ball shot.)
- [Practically limitless other options to honor female Texan abolitionists, astronauts, athletes, entrepreneurs, etc etc etc]

Eschewing racial over/undertones altogether:
- Enjambment (hard to tell where this line ends and another begins - the jam-jug defines the route's poetry in motion as more than a squeeze job)
- Pajama Jamma (V0 with an easy fist jam you can do in your PJs).
- Toe Jamb (If you use the toe jam in the right crack like in D Graham's photo, this is a playful reference to the masochism of jamming ones toes into a thin side support)

If the FAer prefers to retain the name "Aunt Jamima", it'd be nice to add some history and explanatory context to the boulder problem info page to make it clear that the intended humor is not meant to be racially charged.

I’d be on Astrid’s side if she was, in fact, not a troll, AND if she was actually, factually, correct about flip flops.  I’ll be curious to see if she proves out to be a legit person/account, and if she chooses a topic of import in the real world.  

Alec Orenstein wrote:  But, to be short about it, if you honestly think Aunt Jemima is the same as Betty Crocker, you’re willfully stupid, and you’re also an asshole.

Seriously dude, get a fucking grip.

And this is why you will have a hard time convincing people...of anything!. Turns people off,  immediately.

Somebody needs to get a grip and calm down.

Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable? Sorry if you're not used to that?

PWZ wrote: Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable? Sorry if you're not used to that?

Those are questions, it looks like. So I will give you a serious answer, even though you didn't ask for one.

You're right - the truth can be uncomfortable.

Calling people names is childish and counterproductive.

So is burying your head in the sand and pretending that your worldview and experiences means that everyone gets the shot at life you did. The fact that you do it with an air of condescension while chiding others for being "childish" or "uncivilized" just further illustrates it.

I would expect no less from you, PWZ. And certainly no more (better)!

Post limit time for me. Have fun.