Why are climbers arguing about this?

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.
                                                        C.S. Lewis 

Professor Booty wrote:

The fact that others are stupid isn't a valid argument for being stupid.

Lacking critical thinking isn't a valid reason to call other's well reasoned ideas stupid either.

I'm 100% behind social distancing. I'm also 100% behind making a flexible plan.

T G wrote:

Think critically, then, because up to this point you haven't demonstrated that you are.

Consider for a moment that your responses are in themselves a form of overreaction. Like everyone else you're trying to process what you're feeling – your grief, your anxiety, and the discomfort of the unknown. Too many people are interpreting what is necessary overprotection as overreaction.

This situation is temporary. Open ended, yes, but temporary. (Isn't that everything in life?) Live in the present. Your anxiety is shared by everyone - we want something different than the present is giving us. Recognize that and be compassionate to yourself and everyone else.

To add on to your point, I doubt any of the people posting that people are overreacting and we shouldn’t self isolate and quarantine would have the guts to say that to any of their older family members or close friends who are actually at risk. It’s easy to say your selfish opinions online, but when they directly could kill someone close to you, it’s much harder to say it to that persons face. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a person that could actually look their elderly grandmother in the eye and tell her that they’re okay with her dying just so they can return to normal life sooner.

When do people on MP not argue?

Trevor Taylor wrote:

Objectively a school is more hazardous of a place to spread a virus. And if your trying to advocate for something against someone, it’s probably not wise to call them children, complain about their crying or in general mocking them. Has your opinion ever changed after something like the above was said to you?

No, but publicly shaming the chronically dense for their specious and inane arguments hopefully wakes a few others up. I'd love to go climbing right now. Life and the world have other plans, so I abide. 

But we can continue to bitch and moan about how climbing can be done safely right now and these quarantines and closures are bullshit while millions lose their jobs and thousands die every day with things getting worse and no clear end in sight. Because, priorities.

Well my wife thinks this is perfect.  According to her I now have time to do all her "honey do" projects.  

Gumby King wrote: When do people on MP not argue?

Quiet you

Dave K wrote:

That is true in the abstract, but that's not a good representation of the current situation. The argument is based on a false choice when Lewis wrote it and it is still a false choice today.

I’d say it’s a perfect representation of the very real, current situation. I understand why you would wish to disregard it though. 

We need to stop acting like only the elderly and immunocompromised are at risk, and that we need to stay home out of compassion for them. They are at greater risk of death, currently - those who reach the point of needing ICU care are less likely to pull through. But EVERYONE is at risk of getting so seriously ill they require ICU care to survive. Being young and healthy makes you more likely to survive this stage, if you get that care. But NO ONE who needs a ventilator will survive without one. By not doing everything you can to stop the spread, you are putting everyone including yourself into a high-risk group.

And the fact that we have no vaccine or cure doesn’t mean our efforts to reduce the spread are pointless, it means that is the ONLY weapon we’ve got against this and we need to use it as well as we can. 

Evaluate the risk, decide what is acceptable based on reality, not models and projections, then keep on living.

More increadibly stupid shit. You clearly don't realize all stock market trading (which idiots have been convinced is "the economy") is based on models and projections. So you are saying ditch the models and projections that will save tens of thousands of lives because they inconvenience you for a couple months. But get back to proping up the bullshit system (all based on models) that drives the capitalist "economy" that benefits the few at the expense of the many.

Lauren D Hollingsworth wrote:

Evaluate the risk, decide what is acceptable based on reality, not models and projections, then keep on living. 

Someone recently said: "We have 15 cases right now. They are going down. Soon they will be zero". If you think this is a "model or projection", I totally agree with you that we shouldn't listen to those. As demonstrated, if you give real science the finger, it can quickly come back and bite you.

Patrick Vernon wrote: It is my understanding that Italy considers any patient + with COVID 19 who dies to have died from that disease whereas China only reported deaths directly related to COVID 19 (no or fewer co-morbidities that could have led to death).  I have read this in several articles.  I think the quote from the Italian doctor could be misleading or mistranslated as it seems the criteria for reporting a COVID death does involve a + COVID test and not just being in a hospital with COVID patients.  If anyone can find information otherwise other than one single quote I would love to see it.    I actually think this is a fairer way to assess the toll of the illness as it shows how deadly it is as a tipping point for people suffering from other chronic and acute illnesses who might otherwise have survived.

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/03/italian-doctors-note-high-covid-19-death-rate-urge-action

Actually, my understanding is that deaths in Italy were underreported in many areas because once the hospitals were overwhelmed families stopped bringing sick old people to the hospital and just let them die at home. Those deaths, generally, are not "confirmed" Covid deaths and, therefore, don't make it into the official stats. 

​https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/this-is-very-important-from-italy-please-read​​​

Well, a more light-hearted response to the OP's question: because climbers argue about anything.

PAS or just use a sling or clove hitch the rope?
ATC or grigri (or hip belay)?
Are self-equalizing anchors even a thing?
Is bouldering climbing?
Is sport climbing climbing?
Is climbing climbing?
If I hear someone yell midway through a route I want to onsight "thank god for that JUG!", can I still onsight it?

etc.

Y'all need to make some tradiplans and get outside.

Gumby King wrote: When do people on MP not argue?

On Totem threads, where it's group worship.

Tradiban wrote: Y'all need to make some tradiplans and get outside.

https://youtu.be/MPrPtDoaB3s

Once it stops raining....looks like the PNW out there today, not high desert. :-(

Best, Helen

did not know so many climbers lived in a Murray Rothbard Hans-Herman Hoppian Thunderdome vision of the world where liquidating the sick, old, and poor is an acceptable outcome.

Climbing mercenaries! Every one of us!! 

Professor Booty wrote: The healthcare system wasn't overwhelmed? Amazing that you gathered this from one anecdote. From what I understand, every hospital in the country is struggling to find protective equipment like gloves and masks to keep their doctors and nurses healthy so they can attend to those in need. Our healthcare workers are being forced to use one mask per shift...can you imagine how dirty and contaminated that mask is after a full shift? 

There are places where the healthcare system is certainly overwhelmed. Those places are obvious: New York, Seattle, and now apparently New Orleans and Detroit? Where it isn’t, the ER is really, really slow. We brought on extra staffing this past week, anticipating a surge. We did have a few very sick respiratory patients, but it’s the slowest it’s been in years. The surge will hit, but where I am it hasn’t yet—which is why it’s important that people who live in hot spots not travel.

SinRopa wrote:

This is an argument for never leaving your house until the pandemic has passed.  It's simply not realistic.  It's also not an accurate depiction of how COVID is spread.

"The virus is thought to spread mainly from person-to-person...between people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet)."

"It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads."

Source: CDC website, cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc…

Just because it’s not the main way it’s spread doesn’t mean that it doesn’t spread that way.

You also seem to equate not leaving your house until the pandemic passes and not climbing until the pandemic passes.  

I said this somewhere in another thread, but we were given 2 months notice about this bullshit and because of attitudes like this we have more cases than China, the place that was hit unexpectedly, and Italy and you think it’s no big deal. 

But you keep believing what you want to believe.