Ridiculous Climbing Gym Policies...Let's Hear Them

This whole page of comments doesn't sound like gym climbing to me

My old gym wouldn't let anyone back inside if they smelled like weed!

M Mobes wrote: My old gym wouldn't let anyone back inside if they smelled like weed!

i would be ok with the weed smell.... the dirty hippie man bun smell tho…..  like walking through a fog of ass sometimes

This whole discussion of belay devices sounds like a Ford vs Chevy argument.  The objective of an automobile is to provide TRANSPORTATION, which they both provide. Which one is "better" is a matter of personal preference...

Both devices are designed to provide BELAYS, which they both provide.  (Although only the ATC can provide a rappel on two ropes without having to add complexity and risk to rig a single rope rappel!).

There have been serious accidents with both Gri Gri and ATC, so NEITHER device is foolproof.  Both can be used safely with competent belayers, and are dangerous with incompetent belayers.

Use whatever device works for you, but make sure you are competent in it's use.  

The Gri Gri vs ATC is just another moebius strip argument which leads nowhere...

After reading like 10 pages of this thread I have a question for my fellow american climbers: how do you see and what do you think of the european climbing gym culture compare to how things are handle in the climbing gym in the US ? I mean I ve been to 10 climbing gym in france, belgium and Switzerland (never climbed in a gym in the US) and there is basically a "no rules" policy (of course there is some advices but very little is enforced). The first time you show up to a place you just have to say at the front desk that you know how to belay and climb and that's about it.
Are europeans crazy ?
Do you know if there is comparative data about accidents rate in european climbing gym Vs. US climbing gym ?

the usa sucks in as much as people want to sue for dumb shit they themselves were responsible for. its dumb and courts should immediately throw out frivolous lawsuits and make the people who brought them forth responsible to pay for any costs for them. i cant even count the times people have tried to sue the drop zones i worked for for doing something stoopit and then trying to sue, after they signed a waiver and initaled like 15 places saying they wouldnt sue, even if something happened that wasnt their fault. forget someone dying, their family sues and the lawyers involve everyone, the dz, jumpmaster/instructor, owner, the pilot, the plane manufacturer, the engine manufacturer, the airport, the rig manufacturer, the canopy manufacturer, every person or company you can think of. it gets out of hand ridiculous.

Fabien Mathieu wrote: After reading like 10 pages of this thread I have a question for my fellow american climbers: how do you see and what do you think of the european climbing gym culture compare to how things are handle in the climbing gym in the US ? I mean I ve been to 10 climbing gym in france, belgium and Switzerland (never climbed in a gym in the US) and there is basically a "no rules" policy (of course there is some advices but very little is enforced). The first time you show up to a place you just have to say at the front desk that you know how to belay and climb and that's about it.
Are europeans crazy ?
Do you know if there is comparative data about accidents rate in european climbing gym Vs. US climbing gym ?

Too many personal injury lawyers in the US, combined with a serious lack of self accountability and common sense. A gym following the model you describe would be out of business within its first year.

To be fair, the tort system in the U.S. is our alternative to an effective health insurance system. The #1 cause of personal bankruptcy is health care costs. So we have lawsuits to keep accident victims financially whole. Great system! While I know nothing about European tort law, it‘s my understanding that it’s much more difficult to sue, and in combination with accessible healthcare, it’s just a lot easier to expect people to take their lumps when they screw up. Our system demands that responsibility be assigned, and that’s how we figure out who pays. It’s ironic to me that our personal responsibility obsession has led to a highly refined system of ascertaining blame, which everybody hates (until one determines that someone needs to be sued). 

Victor K wrote: it’s just a lot easier to expect people to take their lumps when they screw up.

Very true I think, in the climbing gym where I m a regular I know of one "major" accident (that I didn't witness but the person is alive and well now) and I witnessed 2 minor accidents, all over the past 3 years; In all cases lack of common sense from the victims or the belayers was to blame. I know the climbing gym never got sue by anyone, the victims never even complained to the gym, it probably never even occur to them to do so...

Fabien Mathieu wrote: After reading like 10 pages of this thread I have a question for my fellow american climbers: how do you see and what do you think of the european climbing gym culture compare to how things are handle in the climbing gym in the US ? I mean I ve been to 10 climbing gym in france, belgium and Switzerland (never climbed in a gym in the US) and there is basically a "no rules" policy (of course there is some advices but very little is enforced). The first time you show up to a place you just have to say at the front desk that you know how to belay and climb and that's about it.
Are europeans crazy ?
Do you know if there is comparative data about accidents rate in european climbing gym Vs. US climbing gym ?

The British Mountaineering Council are trialling an 'incident report database' which can be found here:

https://www.incidents.thebmc.co.uk/responses

This is far from a complete picture, as the online reporting feature has only been around for the past year or so (and I highly doubt that everything gets reported), but there are 29 incidents of 'Belaying failure or error', of which 8 happened 'Indoors', 12 happened while 'Sport climbing', 8 happened while 'Trad climbing' and 1 happened while 'Winter climbing'.

If you've got time on your hands, you can read the reports for yourself, but it seems to me that a lot of these had nothing to do with which device was used and everything to do with lack of common sense and/or experience.

Andrei Steclaru wrote:

The British Mountaineering Council are trialling an 'incident report database' which can be found here:

https://www.incidents.thebmc.co.uk/responses

This is far from a complete picture, as the online reporting feature has only been around for the past year or so (and I highly doubt that everything gets reported), but there are 29 incidents of 'Belaying failure or error', of which 8 happened 'Indoors', 12 happened while 'Sport climbing', 8 happened while 'Trad climbing' and 1 happened while 'Winter climbing'.

If you've got time on your hands, you can read the reports for yourself, but it seems to me that a lot of these had nothing to do with which device was used and everything to do with lack of common sense and/or experience.

If you filter only " climbing gym" you get 13 accidents with only 2 being serious and none being deadly and all of them being the result of bad climbing or bad belaying. 

Something I don't know about is if the policies inside climbing gym in the UK in closer to the one in place in the US or continental Europe. 

Fabien Mathieu wrote:

If you filter only " climbing gym" you get 13 accidents with only 2 being serious and none being deadly and all of them being the result of bad climbing or bad belaying. 

Something I don't know about is if the policies inside climbing gym in the UK in closer to the one in place in the US or continental Europe. 

I'd filtered by both 'Indoor climbing' and 'Belaying error' to get to my numbers.

I haven't been to any climbing gyms in mainland Europe, but from what I hear, UK walls have similar rules to the ones in mainland Europe, as in there are no hard and fast rules, just use your common sense and don't be an idiot. You have to pass a 'competency test' when you join a new gym (show that you know how to put a harness on and how to belay top-rope climbers, and also answer a couple of questions like 'which part of the rope must you hold at all times'), but that's it.

Andrei Steclaru wrote:

I'd filtered by both 'Indoor climbing' and 'Belaying error' to get to my numbers.

I haven't been to any climbing gyms in mainland Europe, but from what I hear, UK walls have similar rules to the ones in mainland Europe, as in there are no hard and fast rules, just use your common sense and don't be an idiot. You have to pass a 'competency test' when you join a new gym (show that you know how to put a harness on and how to belay top-rope climbers, and also answer a couple of questions like 'which part of the rope must you hold at all times'), but that's it.

That's pretty much what US gyms do, too. Based on conversations with folks, I believe UK climbing gym culture and US climbing gym culture and rules are not dissimilar. I've been living in Belgium, and, as noted above, the gyms have no competency tests at all, and you see a lot of one-handed belays (the other day, i saw a woman "belaying" with both her hands resting on the rope above her gri-gri. Her climber was about 20 feet up). Europeans keep telling me when I ask about this that Americans are just litigious. I'm not planning to sue anyone. I just don't want to die or watch anyone die.

Olya O wrote:

That's pretty much what US gyms do, too. Based on conversations with folks, I believe UK climbing gym culture and US climbing gym culture and rules are not dissimilar. I've been living in Belgium, and, as noted above, the gyms have no competency tests at all, and you see a lot of one-handed belays (the other day, i saw a woman "belaying" with both her hands resting on the rope above her gri-gri. Her climber was about 20 feet up). Europeans keep telling me when I ask about this that Americans are just litigious. I'm not planning to sue anyone. I just don't want to die or watch anyone die.

Umm... have you read any of this thread?

Andrei Steclaru wrote:

Umm... have you read any of this thread?

just the last two pages. Not trying to be a jerk. Just weighing in.

I’m in Barcelona and climb regularly at Climbat Foixarda. No rules. No belay test. BYOR (rope). But everyone does sign a waiver. And I’ve seen some pretty awful things—ground loops of slack whilst belaying through the first bolts, multiple z clips, back clips, excessively long falls that get laughed off, and every awful grigri belay “technique” you could invent. Survival of the fittest and its kinda ok by me.  I don’t think folks sue as much over here. I have heard of folks not clipping into autobelays and getting hurt but have never witnessed it. No idea what their accident rate might be.
On the other hand, just a few weeks ago at the Sharma gym, on their small lead climbing wall, we were asked to use helmets and someone watched us for a minute or two to see if we knew what we were doing, so I think Sharma might be leaning toward the US belay test model but it isn’t very formalized at this point. 

Daniel Joder wrote: I’m in Barcelona and climb regularly at Climbat Foixarda. No rules. No belay test. BYOR (rope). But everyone does sign a waiver. And I’ve seen some pretty awful things—ground loops of slack whilst belaying through the first bolts, multiple z clips, back clips, excessively long falls that get laughed off, and every awful grigri belay “technique” you could invent. Survival of the fittest and its kinda ok by me.  I don’t think folks sue as much over here. I have heard of folks not clipping into autobelays and getting hurt but have never witnessed it. No idea what their accident rate might be.
On the other hand, just a few weeks ago at the Sharma gym, on their small lead climbing wall, we were asked to use helmets and someone watched us for a minute or two to see if we knew what we were doing, so I think Sharma might be leaning toward the US belay test model but it isn’t very formalized at this point. 

(GASP!) Mandatory helmets for leading the gym?! 

Tradiban wrote:

(GASP!) Mandatory helmets for leading the gym?! 

Time to pebble wrestle at that point. No helmet, no shirt, no problem

Currently training for a first time trip to the Valley, looking to tick a few walls.  While at the gym, not gonna name them (*cough*they say they are the biggest gym in the nation *ehhem*)  they had alot of rules for training.  First I apparently was supposed to meet some required checklist by the director... then you have to have your ladders on dasies... no ascending ropes, and they put me on the smallest kiddie wall with no vert to practice on ONLY!  

Then I was also told they dont want people to use gear that's not required for for inside a gym... I understand that the free movement has changed rock climbing, but ppl who wanna train to do something much bigger than the average gym gumby such as a big wall, or learn the art of aid climbing should be allowed/praised to do so in a safe padded environment before going outdoors where a mistake can cost you.  

Maybe I'm wrong but it kinda pissed me off (all the other gyms were chill with it)

All the people arguing about how Americans just want to sue people more than any other country are massively over simplifying the issue.
1. The US is common law while most of Europe uses Civil law
2. Loser more frequently pays in European countries
3. European countries have laws that place greater responsibility on the party involved (for better or worse all those people who died in the alps because an avalanche crashed into a hotel likely saw less compensation than they would in the US)
4. When someone is injured in the US there is a greater level of indemnification owed to that party (partly due to the medical insurance system and the concept of wage loss)
5. US has more trials by Jury (which generally favors victims)

I am in no sense an expert in law, but I am an Actuary so I see more settlements than 99.9% of the population.