Backcountry Skiing Trail Etiquette

John Penca wrote:

Nope, you are wrong. Google "mountain biking etiquette".

https://www.singletracks.com/trail-advocacy/mountain-biking-basics-trail-etiquette/

https://ntxtrails.com/who-has-the-right-of-way-on-mountain-bike-trails/

https://www.bouldermountainbike.org/trail-etiquette/

Thanks for bringing this to my (and others) attention. The 1st ref clearly states "Bicyclists traveling downhill should yield to ones headed uphill, " I have to say this seems UNIQUE to the general rule that "The vehicle with the least ability to control direction has the right of way".  Thus a sailboat has the right of way over MOST powered boats (but not giant tankers because the sailboat is actually more maneuverable) and the skier headed downhill from above needs to yield to the skier below, because he/she can see MORE of the SITUATION and thus has, in theory, more control over where he/she goes. As for hikers on a trail, even there the hiker moving downhill is potentially in less control; usually it's easier for an uphill hiker to just step aside, although here I'd guess things might be pretty equal. In Trucking, the downhill truck has the right of way. (My Dad was a truck driver in the days before the Interstate and when breaks were not what they are today.)

In any event, I would think the downhill skier on a track (say, a logging road or trail through the woods)  would have the right-of-way vs the skier skinning uphill , it being so much easier for the uphill-moving person to just step aside out of the way.

I looking at the biking situation, it seems to me the logic is that the uphill riding biker is expending a great deal of energy, and his/her stopping or slowing "kills" the uphill momentum and if this results in he/she stopping, then starting from zero on an uphill is very difficult,  especially if rocky or with roots,while the downhill biker has only to stop and start up again in a "downhill coast"; for this reason it makes sense, I suppose, for biking "reverse" the normal order of right-of-way; but this doesn't apply to skinning up a slope, except maybe when it is VERY steep.

Robert, your take is generally correct.  Bikes are in their own category due to the nature of bicycle mechanics and physics.  Riding slow and uphill has less maneuverability and power to adjust than downhill riders.  Downhill riders have nice brakes to micro-control speed and bikes have suspensions and don’t need to turn sideways to a narrow trail to stop.

Let’s summarize the agreements:

1.  Courtesy is key.  
2.  Maintain control.   No kamikaze runs.
3.  Give a “heads up”.  Announce your presence and intentions.
4.  Universal passing rules in effect -  move to the right as far as possible while maintaining control.  Don’t go left or make sudden spastic panicky moves. 
5.  Control your dog (unless he’s skiing)
6.   If at a resort, and you are both skiing down, defer to the persons below you.  
7.   In the BC, Defer to the people coming down the hill in restricted maneuver areas.
8.   Never hike or snowshoe in SKI tracks.

Just a final thought for those skinning up...doesn’t apply in all cases, but....did YOU make those tracks that you’re conveniently using now?   Maybe the people who made them are coming back down.   Thank them by yielding

Maureen Maguire wrote: Yes, the answer is yes. Don't skin up the downhill track and if the tracks merge get out of the way.

Apples and oranges.  Folks are talking about skiing down and up the same track.  Folks are ending their day on the same trail as it began on.  If its narrow and there's little to no room to pass, check your speed especially on a weekend day when you'd expect to encounter other folks.  Uphill skiers on the skinner have their head down, grinding it out (or, if me, daydreaming and working out the world's problems).  They can't react quick enough to a high speed downhill skier safely all the time especially around blind corners and low vis areas (brushy, tight trees, fog, dusk).

I've had an unfortunate encounter with another skier in my distant past.  Hit them so hard I knocked their gloves off, and, I got to watch their eyes roll into the back of their head (knocked them out).  Was both of our fault as we merged together at high speed from two different directions and both turned into each other. I felt terrible.  When they came around, they were really reasonable about it and we parted on friendly terms.

Part of the reason I like the back country is you usually find like minded folks out there having a good time.  Being pleasant goes a long ways...

a lot of you folks seem quite mean and angry. 

Is this the right time to bring up folks ski touring while blasting music from portable speakers hanging off their packs?

^and their hammocks across the trail. 

Tapawingo Markey wrote: Is this the right time to bring up folks ski touring while blasting music from portable speakers hanging off their packs?

That's why I always carry a shovel in my pack.

John Byrnes wrote: Nope, that's not the scenario we're discussing.  

True, in the backcountry as well, when both skiers are moving in the same direction.    

 Define "manage their speed safely" before you go making statements like this, because you sound like an ignorant newbie.   A collision at 5mph is serious, so are you proposing we WALK down?  Bloody nonsense.   Resort skier, eh? 

And I didn't say to yell "MOVE", because it's the completely WRONG thing to say.    So perhaps you should focus on your reading comprehension as well as your (absent) backcountry skiing abilities.  

why is this guy such a dick?

WinstonVoigt wrote:

why is this guy such a dick?

Didn’t you read his credentials, he has every right to be one

oh, I must have missed that part. I guess I'm the real internet dickhead 

WinstonVoigt wrote:

why is this guy such a dick?

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.  Imagine someone asked here about who has the right of way when you're rappelling down a route somebody is leading.  Then 2/3rds of the responses were "the rappeller has the right of way."  I think a bunch of folks would sound a lot like John.

WinstonVoigt wrote:

why is this guy such a dick?

Never mind.

MAKE FALL LINE SKIING GREAT AGAIN !

There shouldn’t be any confusion which way to go.  All parties should attempt to give as much way by moving to their right.   Never alter course or move to the left unless specifically communicated and warranted in rare circumstances.  

Mark Pilate wrote: Robert, your take is generally correct.  Bikes are in their own category due to the nature of bicycle mechanics and physics.  Riding slow and uphill has less maneuverability and power to adjust than downhill riders.  Downhill riders have nice brakes to micro-control speed and bikes have suspensions and don’t need to turn sideways to a narrow trail to stop.

Yes.   It seems it must be pointed out to the MTBers that skis don't have brakes.  They cannot be stopped or slowed while moving in a straight line.     This is one fundamental difference between bikes and skis.  Furthermore, uphill skiers with their skins on can stop instantly without falling over or going backwards; the exact opposite of bikes.

Let’s summarize the agreements:

1.  Courtesy is key.  
2.  Maintain control.   No kamikaze runs.
3.  Give a “heads up”.  Announce your presence and intentions.
4.  Universal passing rules in effect -  move to the right as far as possible while maintaining control.  Don’t go left or make sudden spastic panicky moves. 

Hmm... I agree about avoiding spastic moves but gotta disagree with moving right.  Some skiing countries move to the left (eg. Japan, Australia).  And if you're going up, moving sideways even a few inches is slow and awkward.   If you're going down, going right may be much more difficult...

Most trails don't go directly up the fall-line, they have some contour, so they have a low-side and a high-side.   As the downhill skier, I'd much rather turn back into the trail from the low-side because it's much easier to turn and control my speed and, half of the time, that's the left side.
 
I still strongly maintain that just stopping and standing still is the safest thing the uphill skiers can do for everyone involved.  

5.  Control your dog (unless he’s skiing)
6.   If at a resort, and you are both skiing down, defer to the persons below you.  

I wanted to add that if you are STOPPED on the hill, you must yield to a moving skier above you before starting off again.

Dear god. You weenies are still arguing over this. Damn you people need to get outside and actually do something.

Pathetic blowhards. 

John Byrnes wrote:

Since you got 9 other clue-less people to give a thumbs-up, I'll respond.

I've skied on just about everything, in every style, for 52 years.   Prepared tracks, backcountry, snow-cave, hut-to-hut, resort, side-country and lots of heli.  Straight-sided skis with bowling shoes, Telemark,  AT and alpine gear.  Groomed runs, bumps, corduroy, ice, powder, trees, corn, crud, sastrugi, breakable-crust, surface hoar, you name it.  Thousands of ski-days in Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, California, British Columbia (the best), even the Midwest and likely some places I've forgotten.  I've been quoted in a ski history book.

I've witnessed dozens of avalanches close-up, not only in the backcountry but inside of resort boundaries.    I've dug-out my buried friends with my shovel.  I've evacuated injured friends on sleds made from their skis and tree branches.  

Back in '78 they decided to pave the road and keep Cameron Pass open year-round.  Did a lot of exploring and first descents with my friends.    We named most of the runs that I hear people talk about today.   I even named a first descent up in BC a few years ago.
  

So yeah, I actually know something about skiing and if I have a chip on my shoulder, I've earned it.

Nice resume!

Rico Kazee wrote:

OK Chad

Whatever you say boy. 

Chad Miller wrote:

Whatever you say boy. 

OK Chad

John Byrnes wrote: Who says I'm unable to stop and/or avoid you?     You must be thinking of someone else.  Yourself perhaps?

If you actually read and understood what I wrote, you'd know that your job is to stand still whether I command it or not.  I've found that a command is more effective, than "Oh excuse me sir, may I pass?"   Just as in climbing, yelling "TAKE!" is more effective and takes less time than, "Oh dear, I'm pumped, would you please take in the slack at your earliest convenience?"

Furthermore, if you "dive out of the way" and that happens to be the patch of snow I was planning to turn in, then yes, it's your fault.

Technically, yes because you failed to yield to the downhill skier.   But if it was just you, I wouldn't generally have any problem passing you even if you kept moving.  

The problems usually occur when there's a group, and they all try to move out of the way.  If they ALL guess correctly, no problem, there's open snow right where the skier needs to turn.  But that isn't very likely.  

Skiing tight trees is difficult enough.  Now, imagine those trees are moving side to side and you'll get the idea.

I think it's now safe to assume that you are kind of a gaper when descending on skis.  You should be quiet now, perhaps you'll get to keep your admin status for that small area you have.

PS- A gaper with a major chip on your shoulder.