Belay <insert demeaning word describing management> says - "No ATC for you!"

I'm super glad we have gyms to go to when it is dark, rainy, or cold,  I have no problem belaying with whatever they want in return for them being there and staying open.

Robert Hernandez wrote: I remember my grandmother cutting the seat-belts  out of her new convertible as a kid with the same self rightiousness as an ATC climber describing the death sentence of a GRI.  She passed away and now we all have seatbelts in our cars.  Damm old people are hilarious.

Back in the 90s, my buddy's girlfriend would laugh at me when I wore my seat belt. She became a doctor and after a rotation in the ER, she now wears her seat belt all the time. I'm very pro ABD because the guy next to dropped his partner on lead with an ATC from ~45 feet. Two sounds you don't forget: the sound of the body hitting the floor and the sound the person makes afterwards. Luckily, it was in the gym and the floor was padded. He had no broken bones but was sore for a couple of months. Yes, it could have been prevented with correct belay technique. But it could have also been prevent with an ABD. 

Stagg54 Taggart wrote: ... ATC. ... People used them for decades and they worked just fine until gear companies came along and convinced everyone that they needed to buy these expensive GriGris to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. 

The amount of sloppy "belays" I see these days have grown exponentially in the last decade or so. Maybe the invention of ABDs (Assisted Braking Device) actually introduced the problem.

How folks learned to belay in olden times.

I was lucky.  While I learned the hip belay as a teen, I never had to catch a fall. And that was probably good because we never practiced catching a fall.

JaredG wrote:

I love my Gri Gri and I love my ATC.  Is there any actual evidence that ABDs are safer than tube-style devices?

Drop a rock on your partners head and youll have the answer.

M Mobes wrote:

Drop a rock on your partners head and youll have the answer.

Too limited. I had a relative who died in a car wearing a seat belt. Maybe we should not be wearing seat belts?

Bill Lawry wrote:

Too limited. I had a relative who died in a car wearing a seat belt. Maybe we should not be wearing seat belts?

If you ever have a friend get killed by rockfall and still catch the leader your tune may change

M Mobes wrote:

If you ever have a friend get killed by rockfall and still catch the leader your tune may change

There are all kinds of fears out there, both inside and outside of climbing.

And some live a life based simply on fear of the "I told you so."  For example, many have a life-constraining belief system centered on the possibility that there is a particular kind of afterlife.

We all get to choose.  I'm comfortable with that, now and in whatever future comes.

Still, back to the topic at hand.  I have five climb acquaintances who broke bones from getting dropped in the gym.  Four of them involved ABDs.  

If people are the average of their friends, and most of those on MP seem to have multiple friends who dropped someone...

It’s a scary world out there.

The leader must not fall!

Tradiban wrote: The leader must not fall!

And not lower off.  ;)

What you are really discussing here is the lowest common denominator in climbing.  If you are a competent climber who understands how to properly use the equipment you are using then all these so called limitations don't really apply.  Some of us used hip belays for years and never dropped anyone because we knew what we were doing.  Please don't lump all climbers into the "gumby" category when making these blanket statements about safety.

JaredG wrote:

I love my Gri Gri and I love my ATC.  Is there any actual evidence that ABDs are safer than tube-style devices?

Yes

https://www.alpenverein.de/Bergsport/Sicherheit/Publications-english/?article23cbf36d-4064-a953-19a9-d029c406a56a=038c1049-ca65-b841-be76-d5cdae0ffd27

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: What you are really discussing here is the lowest common denominator in climbing.  If you are a competent climber who understands how to properly use the equipment you are using then all these so called limitations don't really apply.  Some of us used hip belays for years and never dropped anyone because we knew what we were doing.  Please don't lump all climbers into the "gumby" category when making these blanket statements about safety.

I agree with you Bruce, but now that climbing has gone mainstream, the landscape has changed.   

Now there's a full spectrum:  we have lots of gumbies, lots of somewhat-competent climbers and lots of competent climbers, too.  Can you tell the difference from a distance?   I can't, and neither can gym owners/managers and insurance companies.   So the "New Rules" (apologies to Bill Maher) have to apply to gumbies and competent climbers alike.  

I almost got banned from Ascent because I wasn't using the Gri-gri in their approved fashion.  I find their methods to have several drawbacks, mostly in situations you encounter outside, but those are  manageable in the gym.  So I belay their way in their gym, my way everywhere else, and know that my way is better overall.   

EDIT: Just wanted to say that I agree with many of the previous comments: most of the accidents and near accidents I know about, both indoors and out, have little to do with the belay device, but everything to do with the person using it, and the worst injuries occurred with ABD's.  

A summary of an accident:
A large block (piece of rock) was dislodged, but its not possible to know exactly how.  It was most likely a block that had been naturally weathered under-surface, and could have been pulled on by Ian, or a block that he stood on.  (Or possibly one that detached above him).  Its impossible to know.  The block caused Ian to fall, and a split second later, the block struck his belayer below, killing her instantly.  With no belayer, Ian suffered a long fall and was killed.  The 3rd climber was out of the line of the falling rock, and protected in a good ‘stance’ (position), and was fine.
​Full article.​​​

rgold wrote: How folks learned to belay in olden times.

Here's the lyrics to that song - to be sung in the style of, "Don't Fence Me In":

DON'T HOLD ME DOWN

Oh, give me rope, lots of rope,
From a lofty cliff above.
Don't hold me down.
Give me time for a climb
Out at Carderock I love.
Don't hold me down.

Let me head for a ledge.
In the morning breeze,
Belayed by a pal
From the cedar trees.
O, hit me on the head
With a rock, but please
Don't hold me down.

Just turn me loose,
Let me wander over yonder
Where the footholds are the worst;
With no excuse
Let me wangle for an angle
To make my ascent the first

I want to hang on a knob
Till I get so bold
I reach out a finger
For a fingernail hold.
Two inches and a push-up
And you're in I'm told.
Don't hold me down!

I kinda like it.

Long Ranger wrote:

Here's the lyrics to that song - to be sung in the style of, "Don't Fence Me In":

I kinda like it.

Thank you!! I was just about to ask if anyone had any info on this song, after some initial googling of the lyrics I couldn’t find it.. I really enjoyed it as well, may have to learn to play it.

Rgold, thanks for posting that video, great stuff. I hadn’t seen any of the PATC videos, perfect for a rainy/sleety day like today:)

John Byrnes wrote:

I agree with you Bruce, but now that climbing has gone mainstream, the landscape has changed.   

Now there's a full spectrum:  we have lots of gumbies, lots of somewhat-competent climbers and lots of competent climbers, too.  Can you tell the difference from a distance?   I can't, and neither can gym owners/managers and insurance companies.   So the "New Rules" (apologies to Bill Maher) have to apply to gumbies and competent climbers alike.  

I almost got banned from Ascent because I wasn't using the Gri-gri in their approved fashion.  I find their methods to have several drawbacks, mostly in situations you encounter outside, but those are  manageable in the gym.  So I belay their way in their gym, my way everywhere else, and know that my way is better overall.   

EDIT: Just wanted to say that I agree with many of the previous comments: most of the accidents and near accidents I know about, both indoors and out, have little to do with the belay device, but everything to do with the person using it, and the worst injuries occurred with ABD's.  

John,

yeah, I get the gym thing.  I haven't climbed in a gym in 25+ years.  I was referring to the general statements made by climbers about this or that safety practice/device/technique.  We aren't all gumbies.  Some of us actually know what we are doing and have been doing it for almost 50 years.