New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #8

Re. core strength. I think with climbing the issue for most people isn't not HAVING it but not actually knowing how to apply it in a climbing situation. The transition from beginner to more advanced climbing means learning to create an invisible line of connection between seemingly disparate parts of your body. This is commonly called body tension. When you see a great climber balancing their way up tiny little holds on an overhanging wall body tension is pretty much the glue holding them to that wall. For me it's always helpful to visualize the muscles and connective tissue between my right big toe and my left hand all lighting up when I engage my core. Which in climbing is definitely NOT just your frontal abs. 

Lori Milas wrote: And a much easier question— it has been politely suggested that I could use more core strength.   Where does one get this?  I’m guessing it’s not more sit-ups.

If I could prescribe one type of exercise for core (remember I am a physical therapist) it would be side planks. These engage all of your core muscles including scapular stabilizers and hip, and there are an unlimited number of progressions as you get stronger. I actually have my clients do multiple repetitions of holding the plank for 7 seconds and rest for 3 seconds, working up to 30 reps on each side with perfect form (these are HARD). Having trunk stability while transitioning in and out of the plank works you in a more dynamic way than holding a static plank for a longer period of time. Many people can hold stability in the plank, but are a loosey-goosey mess transitioning in and out of it - climbing (and life) is dynamic not static, so it is beneficial to work dynamic stability. 

Sit-ups really don't do much and are not the best use of time/effort. 

As older (ahem) adults, most of us can also benefit greatly from working our extensors - even something as simple as 'bird-dogs' - hands and knees with raising alternate arm/leg together, or doing this on your stomach. That's is also a nice oppositional exercise for gluts, scap muscles, and trunk extensors.

And yes - core is incredibly important for slab (and all) climbing. Body tension. Holds you on the rock. :) I'm constantly reminding myself to engage my gluts and bring my hips in.

Edit to add: Yes! What Señor said!

Planks and more planks of differing varieties for core.

They really work.

Also crunches (but don't pull your neck up while doing them) and pull-ups as well.

Pushups are good for antagonist work and backs and shoulders.  

I've been doing each of these multiple times a week, at least one of them everyday, over the last year and my core is so much stronger now.  

Señor Arroz wrote: Re. core strength. I think with climbing the issue for most people isn't not HAVING it but not actually knowing how to apply it in a climbing situation. The transition from beginner to more advanced climbing means learning to create an invisible line of connection between seemingly disparate parts of your body. This is commonly called body tension. When you see a great climber balancing their way up tiny little holds on an overhanging wall body tension is pretty much the glue holding them to that wall. For me it's always helpful to visualize the muscles and connective tissue between my right big toe and my left hand all lighting up when I engage my core. Which in climbing is definitely NOT just your frontal abs. 

This is so true and one reason why I think dancers, gymnasts, and those who practice yoga seem to excel at the. beginning - they know body control and how to engage muscle groups. Of course, in addition to the extra strength those pursuits provide.

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Perhaps at the core of the different attitudes towards using sport or trad as an intro to leading lies in the beliefs behind these two common sayings:
"The leader must not fall."
"If you're not falling, you're not trying hard enough."

Leading sport routes DOES help one get over the fear of not being on a toprope.  It does train you to go above your pro.  Go to any gym or sport climbing area and you will see people taking at a bolt because they are apprehensive about the next move beyond the bolt, even when the fall would probably be safe (no fall is 100% safe).  They gradually overcome that fear.

But then, when it comes to leading trad, I still, in general, feel like the best safety rule is "the leader must not Fall".  I think this is the main thing that kept me alive the first ten years I was leading - not falling on stuff where there was sketchy or limited pro - which can regularly be the case on easier trad routes.  This switch in fundamental attitudes about falling is what is behind so many accidents with sport climbers making the transition to trad. (I'm reading this year's AINAC right now, always sobering and upsetting.)

This has been stated by several people - a good approach whether it's trad or sport, is to start by leading at a grade several grades below your limit.  With limited experience of different types of stone, or steepness or size of crack, you may not KNOW what your limit is.  This is why following for a while is so useful.

Of course reasonable people can disagree about things.  Here are some responses and why I think sport leading isn't necessarily a good prerequisite for trad leading.

Both Buck and Nick (love you back guys) say it "teaches you to climb above your gear."  Honestly, I don't know what this means.  I assume it refers to some mental aspect, i.e. that climbing above trad pro is more challenging because you might not be sure it is good.  If this is the case, I'd say that eliminating the need to consider how good the gear is would be one of the counterproductive effects of sport leading.  You can't treat every trad piece as if it was a good bolt, and the anxiety associated with trad pro is something one has to learn to accommodate but shouldn't eliminate.  For example, if the gear you've placed is somewhat questionable, that's going to influence when and where you make the next placement; your spacing (and the efforts required to get it) is partially determined by your judgement about the reliability of what you've placed.  I don't see that the reduction in concern carried over from sport climbing is a functional adaptation for this pretty common trad situation.

Here are some other issues.  Please understand that I am not knocking sport climbing, just trying to note some of the features that I think make it a fairly ineffective way to prepare for trad leading.

• Bolts eliminate the need to make route-finding decisions, since you typically just more or less head towards the next bolt.  "Route-finding decisions" in the trad context means not only deciding which way to go, but also realizing it isn't working out, backing down, and going another way, all without falling, since falling might not be a good idea in that particular situation.  I recently did a moderate climb with someone whose experience was mostly gym and sport (and in those genres is much better than me), and they tried to bulldoze their way up a section that was a few feet right of the "correct" way, resulting in a longish leader fall that fortunately went past a ledge that could have done real damage.  I didn't know (or more accurately didn't remember) the route, but after we switched ends and I went up, I made a move in the section they fell from, felt the strain and could see it wouldn't end quickly, looked around and spotted some promising-looking holds off to the left, stepped back down, traversed over there, got up easily, then traversed back over the much harder section my partner had fallen from.  This is just standard trad climbing, but my partner had developed some connect-the-dot habits from sport climbing that ill-served them and caused a fall on something five grades under what they can do in terms of sheer difficulty.
• Bolts eliminate the need to figure out when and how to place protection.  The sport climb developer has taken over that task, trying to get safe spacing and trying to locate optimal clipping stances. The trad climber needs to have a continuous internal monologue going about how solid they are, what protection opportunities are available, what gear they have left and what should perhaps be conserved for later,  how much energy to burn getting in gear, and whether the circumstances call for doubling up.
• Bolts encourage "going for it."  Precisely because the falls are typically safe, it is much more reasonable in sport climbing to just go for it and see whether what you're trying works out.  One quickly develops the mentality that all problems are solved by moving up.   Of course we behave similarly in appropriate well-protected trad too, but there are also a lot of places in which moving up isn't going to solve anything, at least partially because there isn't a bolt waiting for you just a move or two or three away, and when it gets more desperate than anticipated and you can't get in any pro, either because of the lack of cracks or your level of fatigue, then moving up was a trap that just extended the distance your inevitable fall is going to involve.
• Bolts eliminate the leader's responsibility to protect the second.  Actually, sport climbs tend to be straight up and down and in any case are often not seconded anyway,  But trad climbing has its share of traverses with possibly nasty pendulum falls for the second if the leader doesn't exercise due diligence.  I did a route a few years ago with a 5.13+ sport climber in which he led up a 5.7 section and after finishing it traversed on easy ground a good 30 feet left to a belay without putting in any kind of directional for me.  All he was thinking was that the climbing was easy and didn't need more gear.  I had to solo the 5.7 section with the potential for a really serious pendulum fall onto a ledge far worse than any leader fall he had faced on any of his leads, making a G-rated situation into an R+ one for the second.  I blame his inexperience with trad climbing.
• Bolts eliminate the need for the leader to manage the rope path, both in terms of where gear goes and how it is slung, and so keep rope friction from complicating (or something much worse) upward progression.
• Sport climbing eliminates the need for the leader to test for and avoid dangerously loose holds, because the developer has already pried them off or glued them down.
• Sport climbing eliminates the need for setting up belay stances with trad gear and so renders the leader far less experienced in this aspect of trad climbing.

Now I get that all these extra features are precisely why people suggest beginning with sport leading.  But all I can see is that you might develop a somewhat misplaced confidence in getting above your gear, while operating with a load of deficits that can get you and your partner into some serious trouble.  This doesn't mean you can't start with sport, lots of people, probably soon if not already the majority of people, now start this way and make perfectly good adjustments to trad.  But they have to learn things they "should" have learned earlier and have to unlearn things that aren't good trad strategies, and to me this suggests that the best way is a trad apprenticeship that involves an orderly progression through the grades providing the time and space for the new leader to grasp and internalize the complexities I just tried to enumerate, as well as others I've probably overlooked.

Tim Schafstall wrote:

This is so true and one reason why I think dancers, gymnasts, and those who practice yoga seem to excel at the. beginning - they know body control and how to engage muscle groups. Of course, in addition to the extra strength those pursuits provide.

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And, coming to climbing from "average old lady", ie couch potato, there is also body awareness, in those other disciplines. Knowing where you are in space. Balance. Knowing exactly where my hands and feet are, and having that precision, is a huge help in just everyday stuff, especially as an old lady with arthritis! Yay, climbing! Although, I suspect handling hand and armfuls of books for twenty years helped the grip strength a smidge!

I meant to type planks, too, lol! I still fall over if I'm sideways and arm fully extended, but do okay with my elbow on the floor. Of course I haven't done any of it for more than half a year, so there's that...

Best, Helen

rgold wrote: Of course reasonable people can disagree about things.  Here are some responses and why I think sport leading isn't necessarily a good prerequisite for trad leading.

Both Buck and Nick (love you back guys) say it "teaches you to climb above your gear."  Honestly, I don't know what this means.  I assume it refers to some mental aspect, i.e. that climbing above trad pro is more challenging because you might not be sure it is good.  If this is the case, I'd say that eliminating the need to consider how good the gear is would be one of the counterproductive effects of sport leading.  You can't treat every trad piece as if it was a good bolt, and the anxiety associated with trad pro is something one has to learn to accommodate but shouldn't eliminate.  For example, if the gear you've placed is somewhat questionable, that's going to influence when and where you make the next placement; your spacing (and the efforts required to get it) is partially determined by your judgement about the reliability of what you've placed.  I don't see that the reduction in concern carried over from sport climbing is a functional adaptation for this pretty common trad situation.

Here are some other issues.  Please understand that I am not knocking sport climbing, just trying to note some of the features that I think make it a fairly ineffective way to prepare for trad leading.

• Bolts eliminate the need to make route-finding decisions, since you typically just more or less head towards the next bolt.  "Route-finding decisions" in the trad context means not only deciding which way to go, but also realizing it isn't working out, backing down, and going another way, all without falling, since falling might not be a good idea in that particular situation.  I recently did a moderate climb with someone whose experience was mostly gym and sport (and in those genres is much better than me), and they tried to bulldoze their way up a section that was a few feet right of the "correct" way, resulting in a longish leader fall that fortunately went past a ledge that could have done real damage.  I didn't know (or more accurately didn't remember) the route, but after we switched ends and I went up, I made a move in the section they fell from, felt the strain and could see it wouldn't end quickly, looked around and spotted some promising-looking holds off to the left, stepped back down, traversed over there, got up easily, then traversed back over the much harder section my partner had fallen from.  This is just standard trad climbing, but my partner had developed some connect-the-dot habits from sport climbing that ill-served them and caused a fall on something five grades under what they can do in terms of sheer difficulty.
• Bolts eliminate the need to figure out when and how to place protection.  The sport climb developer has taken over that task, trying to get safe spacing and trying to locate optimal clipping stances. The trad climber needs to have a continuous internal monologue going about how solid they are, what protection opportunities are available, what gear they have left and what should perhaps be conserved for later,  how much energy to burn getting in gear, and whether the circumstances call for doubling up.
• Bolts encourage "going for it."  Precisely because the falls are typically safe, it is much more reasonable in sport climbing to just go for it and see whether what you're trying works out.  One quickly develops the mentality that all problems are solved by moving up.   Of course we behave similarly in appropriate well-protected trad too, but there are also a lot of places in which moving up isn't going to solve anything, at least partially because there isn't a bolt waiting for you just a move or two or three away, and when it gets more desperate than anticipated and you can't get in any pro, either because of the lack of cracks or your level of fatigue, then moving up was a trap that just extended the distance your inevitable fall is going to involve.
• Bolts eliminate the leader's responsibility to protect the second.  Actually, sport climbs tend to be straight up and down and in any case are often not seconded anyway,  But trad climbing has its share of traverses with possibly nasty pendulum falls for the second if the leader doesn't exercise due diligence.  I did a route a few years ago with a 5.13+ sport climber in which he led up a 5.7 section and after finishing it traversed on easy ground a good 30 feet left to a belay without putting in any kind of directional for me.  All he was thinking was that the climbing was easy and didn't need more gear.  I had to solo the 5.7 section with the potential for a really serious pendulum fall onto a ledge far worse than any leader fall he had faced on any of his leads, making a G-rated situation into an R+ one for the second.  I blame his inexperience with trad climbing.
• Bolts eliminate the need for the leader to manage the rope path, both in terms of where gear goes and how it is slung, and so keep rope friction from complicating (or something much worse) upward progression.
• Sport climbing eliminates the need for the leader to test for and avoid dangerously loose holds, because the developer has already pried them off or glued them down.
• Sport climbing eliminates the need for setting up belay stances with trad gear and so renders the leader far less experienced in this aspect of trad climbing.

Now I get that all these extra features are precisely why people suggest beginning with sport leading.  But all I can see is that you might develop a somewhat misplaced confidence in getting above your gear, while operating with a load of deficits that can get you and your partner into some serious trouble.  This doesn't mean you can't start with sport, lots of people, probably soon if not already the majority of people, now start this way and make perfectly good adjustments to trad.  But they have to learn things they "should" have learned earlier and have to unlearn things that aren't good trad strategies, and to me this suggests that the best way is a trad apprenticeship that involves an orderly progression through the grades providing the time and space for the new leader to grasp and internalize the complexities I just tried to enumerate, as well as others I've probably overlooked.

Rich, I would add, that the attitudes you delineate above, also bite sport climbers in the butt, sometimes tragically, when they go to a new area to climb that is a new rock type, old school, or both, and don't use all the strategies you mention that a trad climber always considers. That's my reality here, tricky rock and old school for our columnar black basalt, especially as a beginner, and, areas that have been around for a long time and are very much buyer beware, like City of Rocks. 

Hey Lori, downclimb a bunch at the gym, when you have a top rope going! I've not downclimbed a full route outside, yet, but I've realized the fall I was setting myself up for and reversed course, on sport leads and top rope both. I've also had to carefully puzzle out being above an anchor, or a bolt, and needing to get down without a short but nasty fall. You can't always just let go, even on a top rope. That's why I dubbed "OLH" an "adventure" top rope. It took the two of us, and a fair amount of thought, to get me up it, and, the crux, get back down!

Best, Helen

RG all good points but it is also entirely possible to lead trad for years and never have to push yourself out of your comfort zone.   We don't call it sewing it up for nothing.. sport on the other hand every  time you go out you end up being forced to push yourself.  when all you have is bolts you actually have to climb to the next bolt. very, very often in trad climbing you can place many more pieces per pitch than that same pitch would offer  if it was bolted.  Don't get me wrong there is no substitute for actually leading and aiding on gear but there is also a tremendous amount of benefit to climbing hard on bolts..  a  5.12 sport climber can learn to lead 10 trad safely in a season. A 5.6 trad climber may never get to lead 5.10 trad...  ever...  may not even be able to get up 5.9 sport...  is what it is... 

rgold wrote: Both Buck and Nick (love you back guys) say it "teaches you to climb above your gear."  Honestly, I don't know what this means.  I assume it refers to some mental aspect, i.e. that climbing above trad pro is more challenging because you might not be sure it is good.

Great post!

I'm going to talk about what I think they meant - I have a feeling that you (rgold) don't know the kind of doubts and fears that occur in the minds of some people, such as myself, who are maybe not natural born climbers.

Buck Rogers said "Sure, you are clipping bolts but you are often above your last piece, which is a HUGE mental adjustment from top roping." [emphasis mine]

I think I understand what he's saying (and he should correct me if I'm wrong). I got started climbing by top-roping. That meant that if I made a mistake and fell, it would be unusual if I fell more than a few inches.

In contrast, when leading both trad and sport, falling above your last pro can lead to a bad injury.

When I started leading, when I moved up above pro, alarm bells went off in my head. The alarm bells got louder the higher I'd go above my last piece or bolt. This was true whether it was a bolt or trad gear. TBH this still happens to me, especially when onsighting a route. The feeling is not as bad when I'm onsighting sport, because I can see where the next bolt is, so I know exactly where to go. The route-finding in sport is similar to top-roping in the gym, where you know to climb to the next green hold. With onsight trad, there's more trepidation, because you just don't know for sure where you'll get in your next piece. You might see something that looks like a slot 5 feet up, climb up to it, and find it's a flaring crack which won't hold pro. Now what? Climb back down, go up, traverse? The only case where things get easier is if there's a crack that goes up the route from top to bottom. In my experience leading trad, this is quite rare.

So my understanding of what Buck is saying is that leading sport helps you transition from top-roping to leading. It lets you feel nervous about not having something to catch you immediately, without added complications. Hopefully, it helps you figure out how to manage the panic which might arise from that feeling, again without all the other stuff (like learning to drive with an automatic transition vs using a clutch).

Nick Goldsmith said "sport leading.. teaches you to actually climb above your gear.. no sewing it up or hiking cams..."

I think what Nick meant is different from what Buck Rogers was saying. Nick seems to be saying that in trad, you have abundant pro and can place stuff anywhere, which makes it sound easier, psychologically, than sport leading. Sorry Nick, but I disagree.    When that happens, it's nice, but I think it's rare. Maybe because I'm usually messing around on slab, or maybe because I'm bad at identifying placements for trad gear. Or maybe because I'd prefer to have pro in every 5 feet but it almost never happens. I'm frequently climbing 5 or 10 feet, or more, above gear. I don't need sport to teach me that. It happens on trad routes all the time.

But, but but, there are NO  R or X routes in sport climbing!

I've climbed a lot of trad and I've also clipped a lot of bolts.  I would have to say that I have been way more run out on trad so many more times than on a sport routes. Normally you can count on a bolt every 10 to 12 feet sometimes even less. I have even been given greif for some of my first assents that my bolts were to far apart. I try to bolt my lines with safety in mind for all future assents. This is why starting out on sport is easier you are normally closer to protection. A properly bolted sport route is usually quite safe. A trad line is only as safe as you make it and if the line permits pro.

Just speaking from my own experience. When I am trad climbing and it gets pumpy I just start dumping the rack and pushing those cams up above my head. if it gets sketchy and the crack runs dry I just gingerly settle on to a hook and pull up the drill ;)  seems like every sport climb I get on that is hard for me the son of a bitch who bolted it was 10ft tall. 

Nick it probably makes a difference if the route was put up ground up or rap bolted. Ground up tends to have better clipping stances. IMO

it mostly matters who bolted it. GU you can still go back and fix your mistakes if you care.   I like to reach as far as I can from a clipping stance and then pull my hand back  at least the length of my hand = about 8 in. then I mark the spot to drill.   however my point is that most G rated trad climbs which is what the new leader is going to be on you can place as much gear as you can carry.  Many, many trad climbs you can top rope the cruxes by reaching up and placing above you for every move.  If all you have is 8 bolts and 8 draws you are at the mercy of whomever bolted the thing and you have to  actually make the moves.   I knew a guy who was pretty vocal bashing sport weinies yet he would bring extra gear to rumny because the runouts between the bolts could be shortened with a few stray cams....  heck I have placed 13 pieces on a 60ft trad lead that I know damn well would only have 6 or 7 bolts on it if it was a sport rig... 

I think the area also will have a lot to do with spaces as well historically what's acceptable on near by lines. 

don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that the best way to get good at trad leading is to lead a bunch of trad but I also firmly believe that it will go much faster if you are a solid spurt leader. I also agree with RG that if you are a trad climber that climbs nothing but sport for a few months you may start getting a bit gunshy about pushing it over crap gear...  its called learning new tricks ;)

Nick Goldsmith wrote: RG all good points but it is also entirely possible to lead trad for years and never have to push yourself out of your comfort zone.   We don't call it sewing it up for nothing.. sport on the other hand every  time you go out you end up being forced to push yourself.  when all you have is bolts you actually have to climb to the next bolt. very, very often in trad climbing you can place many more pieces per pitch than that same pitch would offer  if it was bolted.  Don't get me wrong there is no substitute for actually leading and aiding on gear but there is also a tremendous amount of benefit to climbing hard on bolts..  a  5.12 sport climber can learn to lead 10 trad safely in a season. A 5.6 trad climber may never get to lead 5.10 trad...  ever...  may not even be able to get up 5.9 sport...  is what it is... 

Oh I'm not saying that sport climbing isn't good training for hard trad.  I'd guess that there is no one currently doing hard trad who doesn't also work hard at sport climbing. But this is irrelevant to the original question,  which was about how an aspiring trad leader should start, and that's a very different question. For example, pushing yourself is, at least in my opinion, just about the last thing a beginning trad leader should be doing, and the extent to which sport climbing makes that easier for people to do is part of why it is counterproductive for the beginning trad leader.

I think another issue is that a number of people who are promoting sport climbing leading as a gateway to trad leading didn't follow that pathway themselves, as they were, I'm guessing, already competent trad climbers when they started sport climbing and were already in control of all those bullet points I posted.

Nick Goldsmith wrote: don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that the best way to get good at trad leading is to lead a bunch of trad but I also firmly believe that it will go much faster if you are a solid spurt leader. I also agree with RG that if you are a trad climber that climbs nothing but sport for a few months you may start getting a bit gunshy about pushing it over crap gear...  its called learning new tricks ;)

Absolutely. A good climber will be able to redpoint hard sport climbs and lead difficult trad routes. Pushing hard on sport will develop power, endurance and ability to read moves quickly. These skills are vital in leading hard trad. On another note, we got a day out at Smith Rock today. Perfect cconditions (even if I wasn't climbing perfectly).

Was I the person who started this sport debate by suggesting that Lori climb that little 5.6 slab in Indian Cove? Fine, then, it's a bolted trad climb.

I've found climbing sport to be helpful in that it let me push past my mental limits (do NOT FALL!) and get comfortable falling on bolts. But that hasn't made me reckless about taking whippers on ledgy or slabby trad climbs.