New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #7

wendy weiss wrote:

Hey, dragons. I was climbing at the BRC today. Guess who was coaching there? Pretty funny to see her fall leading a 5.8 (so the guy she was with could get certified to belay).

Next time you see her, tell her I said "hi!"   

We got out yesterday and discovered some new-to-us low angle slab:

I led this pretty fast - no pro, so just keep going till you get to the trees   

Rapping last evening at The Belltower.

Jeffrey Constine wrote:

new route Slab out! 11? 60m

Interesting. Slab to maybe slightly overhung? Where?

Does anyone have a thought on how snug (ie painful) indoor climbing shoes should be?  What do you all wear? 

It’s been suggested to me many times that I need climbing shoes that are so tight they can only be worn 20 minutes at a time. Today, climbing a difficult 10d rout Ryan said “Lori you aren’t trusting your feet. The rubber is worn off the toes and you’re not sticking... AND they’re too loose.” I’d love to blame my lousy climbing on my shoes.     My homework assignment is to go buy some very tight fitting shoes that I have to take off between climbs. (Did that... Scarpa Helix at half size smaller.). Is it really necessary to be in pain? 

On the other hand... my outside climbing friends disagree.  TCPros are comfortable and you can wear them for hours.

Further right Count Dracula (5.11a) is quite good, steeper and a bit harder, but not as sustained. [Funny story, Powell and Hensel drilled the first bolt by uprighting a picnic table and standing atop it - the stance is pretty small]. 

We worked on that bolt for quite a long time, on stance.  As mentioned, it was thin.  So climb up, hit the hand drill a few times, then climb down.  Finally, KP figured it was as good as done, hit it one last time, and of course per the law that governs those kinds of things the bit snapped off in the hole.  After all that flushed work it seemed a bit much to completely start over, so we looked around for options.  

And there it was.  A picnic table that wasn't chained down...

Funny thing was, we had trouble getting it stable so it was almost as dicey getting on top of the wobbly picnic table as doing the moves had been (if not more so).  

At the GFB Trona.

Lori Milas wrote: Does anyone have a thought on how snug (ie painful) indoor climbing shoes should be?  What do you all wear?

It’s been suggested to me many times that I need climbing shoes that are so tight they can only be worn 20 minutes at a time. Today, climbing a difficult 10d rout Ryan said “Lori you aren’t trusting your feet. The rubber is worn off the toes and you’re not sticking... AND they’re too loose.” I’d love to blame my lousy climbing on my shoes.     My homework assignment is to go buy some very tight fitting shoes that I have to take off between climbs. (Did that... Scarpa Helix at half size smaller.). Is it really necessary to be in pain?

On the other hand... my outside climbing friends disagree.  TCPros are comfortable and you can wear them for hours.

TC Pros are great. Anything from Tenaya also fits this category. Performance w/o pain is their motto. Love the Tarifas and the Mundakas, about to get the Iatis. They fit like a glove AND don’t hurt. I also really like the La Sportiva Skwama for steep sport bouldering performance with a pretty comfy feel. La Sportiva Genius are versatile high performance, but are one route and done. They were also outshone by Mundakas on last two outdoor trips.

Thanks, Todd. I guess my question is around performance. How necessary is the achingly tight fit?  I've caught on to the idea of how nice it would be if I could absolutely trust my feet on tiny holds indoors.  (Picture is of Ryan demonstrating the route I was working on yesterday) What's under his left foot I would be very tentative on and maybe slip off.  And his next step would be a right foot on the little yellow nub above his left foot.  Too many nubs!

Mark... outdoors I love TC Pros.  They feel like house slippers to me.  But now that you bring it up, I'm wondering if anyone else experiences shredding the rubber on both sides (of any shoe) when foot jamming up a crack?  Maybe I'm just not good at this yet, but I feel so bad when I have to yank a wedged foot out of a crack and feel the rubber just peeling off the sides.  How long are climbing shoes supposed to last?

Has anyone climbed Billabong before?  Seems like the routes that really captivate me are slabby and thin.  I don't know what prep work I can do this month of September in the gym... maybe working on those little yellow nubbies with tighter shoes will help with these outdoor faces?  

I sat on a rock below and watched this guy climb this route and took pictures... I was afraid to make a sound that might distract him.  It was a beautiful scary dance.

I have Climb billabong not that big a deal just in obvious climbing out to the right It’s one of those climb up to the bolt then down climb to the right and climb up to the bolt and down climb to the right and up deal. 

 In that photo I don’t even know what’s going on there Lori! 

Toes curled is not a good thing lol 

Jeffrey Constine wrote:  In that photo I don’t even know what’s going on there Lori! 

Oh. That’s called a “climbing gym”. And that there is a “route” in the climbing gym.   

I’m beginning to see a way to level the playing field here with Constine.  The best of 3 at an indoor climbing gym. There happens to be one just a few miles from you, Jeff. Toes curled... up up and away!    

I used to climb some with a guy by the name of Kamps---some of you here know him.  In his prime he climbed in shoes that would be regarded nowadays as mediocre approach shoes, and without sticky rubber to boot.  Climbers in their super-tight downturned sticky rubber foot-torture devices are still finding his routes plenty challenging today.  The point being that skilled footwork will get you a long way, and maybe the "problem" doesn't have to be solved by tighter and increasingly less anatomic horrors.  Large numbers of 5.12's were put up by climbers using flat-lasted shoes, so one might argue that the downturned varieties are mostly for 5.13 and up.  Not to mention that once your feet are in agony, you'll climb worse, not better.

Of course, climbing shoes can't be comfortable in the sense that any ordinary hiking boot has to be.  They have to be tight, toes to the edge at the front.  I think curled toes are mostly  prescription for foot pain with minimal additional advantage, but everyone's feet are shaped differently and for some folks curling may be better than for others.  The main thing, I think, is to find a last that works for you---if you do it will be a revelation.  I don't have a particularly wide foot, but most La Sportiva shoes are too narrow for me.  Scarpas are, in general, much better.  I don't have easy access to most Tenaya  and Boreal models so can't comment on them with any authority.  Stiffer shoes can be a bit less snug than softer shoes and perform the same on small edges, whereas softer shoes are better for smearing on dimples and just plain pressuring featureless rock.

My general fitting strategy is to find the tightest fit I possibly can and then back off one or a half-size from that, but that's just a general guideline.  I typically use retired "outdoor" shoes, possibly resoled, as gym shoes.

Lori, high performance and "uncomfortable" aren't the same thing. The idea that you have to wear your shoes so tight it kills is actually very outdated. For my high-performance shoes I wear either Evolv Shamans or Evolv Oracles (if I want a lace up). The Shaman's have velcro and easily come on and off between turns on a sport route. But they don't hurt when they are on. I could never climb all day in them (which is why I own a pair of TC pros) but a well-fitted high-performance shoe isn't going to cause pain when it's on. If it does, it's the wrong model for your foot shape and keep right on trying other shoes. 

It does I think depend so much on foot shape. I also like a softer shoe as I only weigh 165lbs.

Señor Arroz wrote: Lori, high performance and "uncomfortable" aren't the same thing. The idea that you have to wear your shoes so tight it kills is actually very outdated. For my high-performance shoes I wear either Evolv Shamans or Evolv Oracles (if I want a lace up). The Shaman's have velcro and easily come on and off between turns on a sport route. But they don't hurt when they are on. I could never climb all day in them (which is why I own a pair of TC pros) but a well-fitted high-performance shoe isn't going to cause pain when it's on. If it does, it's the wrong model for your foot shape and keep right on trying other shoes. 

Maybe we are supposed to suffer for our art.   

I can hear the scolding now from my diabetic foot doctor when I go limping in with numb feet and toes and a pair of old Scarpas slung over my shoulder.  

Interesting conversation about shoes and footwork...

On Saturday my mate and I took a guy who is quite new to climbing outdoors for his first time.  We met at the bouldering gym on global climbing day last weekend.  He is quite a bit younger than me (I'm 57 he's 45) and arguably a lot fitter; he does wake boarding, trail running, surfing, long boarding (skateboarding). He said he climbs grade 19s in the gym (top rope).

We offered to let him go first on the grade 16 top rope climb we normally do as a warm up.  He didn't get over half way.  He couldn't find the footers, was over-gripping, reliant to much on his arms.

He did end up completing the route after maybe five attempts with quite a bit of rest between attempts.  I did is cleanly about 8 times.  Now, it's only a grade 16.  A 'nothing' really as far as a top rope climb goes.  I'm no great climber at ALL, but it was sop interesting to see the difference between indoors and outdoors for him.  As I said to him, I can't remember anyone who's come out doors climbing for the first time and been able to do a climb like this first go. Climbing well indoors just does not transfer well to climbing well outdoors.  

I pointed out a small footer on a rock at the base of the climb and said "THAT is a great footer. But you won;t find a footer that small in a gym. Even smearing on rock is fine".  He asked what smearing was.  Valid question as the walls in the gym he goes too are smooth wood and smearing just isn't a thing there.  It's like Lori's picture of her friend Ryan climbing indoors.  The left footer is great.

Anyway, here's a video of me showing him the sequence I use on the climb and my mate probably overdoing the instruction :-).  

Warning, the video contains a naughty                                                 word.

PS grade 16 is about a grade 5.8.

https://youtu.be/SskLIW3B88o

Lori Milas wrote:

Oh. That’s called a “climbing gym”. And that there is a “route” in the climbing gym.   

I’m beginning to see a way to level the playing field here with Constine.  The best of 3 at an indoor climbing gym. There happens to be one just a few miles from you, Jeff. Toes curled... up up and away!    

I think Jeff was talking about the photo of Billabong. I, too, went WTF? when I looked at the ropes in that photo. Is he leading? Is he on top rope? Is this one of those Japanese bondage tricks?

Only one type of shoe in my quiver 510 moccasins that is all I need may not work for everyone but work for me all day long