Climbing just gets more pathetic- we need more misfits and outcasts again

Artful Dodger wrote:

Nothing wrong with any culture, culture itself is just a thing,

No, that is incorrect.  You stated " you believe there is nothing wrong with white culture".  What then, was the reason for this statement?  If you're telling another person that they believe there is nothing wrong with white culture (which I still don't know what in the world that even is, by the way), then it's quite obvious that YOU think there is something wrong with white culture, otherwise there is no reason to state that at all.  You lack a basic understanding of what you're saying and why you're saying it if you can't explain in simple logical terms why you said something.

 Read my post to Ubu, I am implicating power structures and relating them to problems extant to our society contributing to folks unable to see why Buddha holds are not cool.

For the record, I don't think it's cool either, but I'm not so quick to attach a connotation of racial oppression by the evil white devil, either.  There's a dangerous trend of pulling the race card any time anything happens that someone doesn't like.  White nationalists do it referring to crime statistics and inner cities, and far left folks do it, well, for anything at all it seems.  Both are logically and thus inherently flawed and when logically picked apart, it's not difficult to see that neither side holds much merit.  I would say that the reason that the company pushed back isn't because of some devious and dastardly scheme drummed up by the evil white devil to further tighten the oppressor grip via the conduit of poly-composite climbing holds in the form of the Buddha, which, judging by your comments, is what you would have us all believe.  Say that out loud to yourself real quick:  "White culture is further exemplified in its oppressive properties and is evidenced by a plot hatched by *climbing company* to blaspheme the Buddha with the most racist and imperialist of intentions by making it a climbing hold".  Say it again.  Out loud.  Seem logical?  While not out of the realm of possibility, it certainly is out of the realm of likelihood.  What is much more likely is that a company doesn't like being told what to do with its products and that the backpedaling the company did isn't because they simply MUST be oppressors pushing an agenda, but because that's a large hold, costs a lot, and is distributed widely, and it might put a dent in their bottom line.  In other words, it's economical, not social.  Now, we can argue all day and extrapolate endlessly about power structures and economics and the wide range of implications therein, but I really don't think that there's some racist white dude in charge of everything at that company that was all "fuck those brown, Asian mfers- we'll do what we want- 'MURICA!!!"  Again, that is kind of the picture you're painting and I don't think that's accurate.

 

Its all of the above, which can also be applied to brown and black folks, to use the reductive census monikers, dig into it, there are always more normal people than crazy folks, pickup trucks, blue jeans and boots not crazy, going into walmart to kill Mexicans, yeah crazy.

This sentence epitomizes complete absurdity.  White culture can be applied to brown and black folks?  How, pray tell, is that possible?  When you use a descriptor based on color of skin, or "race" as it were, that descriptor cannot be applied to other groups that cannot be characterized with that same descriptor.  This reminds me of a meme I saw recently that said "yes, I'm vegan, yes, I eat meat.  We exist."  You need not respond to me further unless you want to, because I don't feel like any productive sharing of ideas can result from absurdity.  Good luck with rearranging the white devil's power structure and oppressive "grip" on the climbing world.  I'll be outside enjoying the privilege that my lack of pigment has so unjustly afforded me.  

Oh and congratulations on getting Trump elected to a second term.  Another thing which goes completely over the heads of staunch leftists that vomit the race card all over everything- you're pushing decent people away from causes that are now only recognizably righteous at their root, but the application of which have gone insanely awry thanks to a lack of logic and an inability to talk about things without labeling an entire population as "bad" based on race.  Which is still racism, by the way.

Is this story about the buddha statue relevant to this conversation?

During the Teng Dynasty, Dharma Master Dan Xia (literally, Red Twilight) used to be a candidate for the civil service examination. But he got a "calling" and later became a Buddhist Monk instead.

On a cold winter night, a big snow storm hit the city and the temple where Dan Xia served as a Monk got snowed in. Cut off from outside traffic, the coal delivery man could not get to the Zen Monastery. Soon it ran out of heating fuel after a few days and everybody was shivering in the cold. The monks could not even cook their meals.

Dan Xia began to remove the wooden Buddha Statues from the display and put them into the fireplace.

"What are you doing?" the monks were shocked to see that the holy Buddha Statues were being burnt inside the fire place. "You are burning our holy religious artifacts! You are insulting the Buddha!"

"Are these statues alive and do they have any Buddha nature?" asked Master Dan Xia.

"Of course not," replied the monks. "They are made of wood. They cannot have Buddha Nature."

"OK. Then they are just pieces of firewood and therefore can be used as heating fuel," said Master Dan Xia. "Can you pass me another piece of firewood please? I need some warmth."

The next day, the snow storm had gone and Dan Xia went into town and brought back some replacement Buddha Statues. After putting them on the displays, he began to kneel down and burn incense sticks to them.

"Are you worshiping firewood?" ask the monks who are confused for what he was doing.

"No. I am treating these statues as holy artifacts and am honouring the Buddha." replied Dan Xia.

Brad G wrote: I’m sure this has already been said more then a few times in this discussion but here it is again. Climbing has become mainstream and it’s time to adapt. You can continue to be a misfit or outcast but don’t expect the masses to follow suit. 

I didn’t want to have to say this, but would all you normal people (definitely not including Brad) just go back to CrossFit or hot yoga or whatever extreme sport you practiced before the climbing gym opened across the street from your office?

Ok MP,
Old lady H has said “cunts”

Thread is over

don'tchuffonme wrote: You're missing the point of the article.  It's not about religion, it's about race.  AGAIN.

"George saw the hold as emblematic of the callousness of white climbing culture."

White people are bad?

FrankPS wrote: Anybody else tired of everything being about race? 

I’m tired of all the anger and the outrage.  Save it for something that actually matters.  Getting outraged about nonsense make people look silly and pretentious .

It might surprise you that a large and reputable survey revealed that 64% of those surveyeD by one political party thought that every member of the other political paRty was a racist.  I will leave it to you to decide who is being the true bigot.

Khoi wrote:

I personally reached out to Liz George and thanked her for not taking eGrip's bullshit initial reply as the resolution of the matter, and for calling them out on their cultural misappropriation, and, on their commodification of a religious figure.

I don't know whether or not you read the entire article, but a second person was also interviewed, someone who IS Buddhist and is from a culture that is predominantly Buddhist. 

So there is a Buddhist speaking up for themself.

Good for you! 

What I find amusing about this story is that usually the push-back people get when they complain about something they find wrong (e.g. Buddha holds, in this case), is to “go do something, instead of just complaining about it.”

Well, in this case, Liz George did go and do something about the thing that she found offensive. Successfully. I applaud her for it. 

While I  would not have been particularly troubled by Buddha holds (or crucifixes, or stars of David), I think they are all in poor taste, but only the Buddha seems to have escaped the poor-taste filter of the hold creators.  I would have found swasticas offensive as climbing holds. And I would have found realistically-painted replicas of human faces offensive as climbing holds. Both of those seem to fall under category of bad-idea-to-most-commonsense hold manufacturers. Which is why we never had to protest those. 

Honestly, my biggest problem in this situation is the write up in outside magazine, and the angle they took. If they hadn’t written that article the way they had, there wouldn’t be people no complaining about how their freedom of speech and expression is infringed by the lack of Buddha holds they never even seen in their local gym. 

The offended Buddhist in the story is from Taiwan, where they have a great balloon festival every year!

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3472026

Dan Cooksey wrote:

Hahahahaha.

It took me a solid couple of minutes to realize what was funny!

Cool, so everyone decrying the loss of novelty Buddha holds is on board with novelty toilet paper with scripture verses printed on them going in at their local gyms? Just making sure.

Artful Dodger wrote:

      don'tchuffonme wrote:  Wtf is white culture, by the way?  (Snip)

Its all of the above, which can also be applied to brown and black folks, to use the reductive census monikers, dig into it, there are always more normal people than crazy folks, pickup trucks, blue jeans and boots not crazy, going into walmart to kill Mexicans, yeah crazy.
(snip)

Its overall ties to the global power structure. But you are correct in all religions adherents will discard their sense of morality or decency when power is at play.

So you are saying that your pejorative "white" isn't really a description at all?  Just a social signal? Or perhaps in psychological and linguistic terms, a token word for something bad or oppressive?
I can't see how that is possibly racist at all then!  What on earth are all of these honkeys complaining about?

Garrett R. wrote: Cool, so everyone decrying the loss of novelty Buddha holds is on board with novelty toilet paper with scripture verses printed on them going in at their local gyms? Just making sure.

Works for me. Or just use leaves out of the Bible. Or sacred text of choice. 

Just don’t touch the Rifle guidebook!

Rub the Budda, just keep your stinky ass feet off.

Chad Miller wrote:

Please, you’ve never actually rock climbed a day in your life. 

Uh oh! Looks like Ive triggered a gym climber!

Artful Dodger wrote:

You're right I am bigoted against hateful people, you believe there is nothing wrong with white culture or patriarchy or Christianity, etc. And, you also clearly believe in right, left and neutrality. Its only pathetic to you because your line of sight is limited. And yes in this country you can go on believing as you have, sociopaths do that. They go on thinking its the rest of the world that's wrong. Where is your argument, counter argument or narrative to support how I and others like me are clearly wrong? 

Which is this country?  England or USA.  Love it or leave it.  You could create your own Micro nation somewhere.  I bet mommy and daddy (I bet you are triggered now) could find a nice little island for you where you'll never feel unsafe again.  Dog eat dog; this world is not for sissies.

Khoi wrote:

Your example of a Buddha statue in one's home is a false equivalence. 

It's an example, a comprison. It is not meant to be equivalent. However it seems reasonable to consider, as a first approximation, that many things that would apply to a one on one situation would also apply between groups of people. One limitation of that thinking, which I have highlighted if you care to check, is that situation between groups of people are actually less clearly demarcated. Some Buddhist would likely say "well.... who cares?", even though in the neat black & white world in which some seem to live they should be against the Budda hold. Some evil white climbers would also say we should take it down & apologize, even though in theory they should be all about stepping the hell out of this hold...

What many Buddhist would find offensive about a Buddha-shaped hold is that climbing holds are made to be stepped on. Stepping on something/someone is viewed as very disrespectful in almost every culture. 

I'm sure they would and it's their right. Some people would take action to remedy that offense, which is also their right and all the best to them if they find that empathy and if they can square whatever motive they initially had with answering the grievance they have cause. But others would just disagree this is offensive and not really do anything, except maybe express sympathy. Which is also their right.

I've grouped the related comments in your response but otherwise as you posted:

How well do you think a hold in the form of the Star of David would go over in a climbing gym in Israel?
What would you say to an observant Jew who is offended by a hold in the form of a the Star of David?

How well do you think a hold in the form of an American flag would go over?  What would you say to a military vet who voices their protest against a hold in the form of an American flag?

Well, as often always when dealing with values issues, it depends. There's a 1000 reasons why I may use an American flags, and about a 1000 other reasons why someone may take offense. And as in most cases when people are offended, the way it should be dealt with is:

1 - The offended person explains/expresses why he/she has been offended.
2 - The person who did whatever was deemed offense weights that perspective against her/his motivation to perform the action that was deemed offensive.
3 - They may, or they may not, come to a consensus as to what actually happened (maybe it wasn't offensive after, maybe it was inappropriate after, or some shade of grey in between).

If you really want to delves into some type of specific example... well if my use of the american flag as a symbol has offended someone, for whatever reason, and if the reason I used the flag in the first place was say a silly joke, I may indeed just take it down or remove it from view of said person or apologize. If it makes that person have a better day heck why not.

However if it was meant as a sign of protest after the US decided to invade Iran next month, then most likely it could be a WW1 vet for all I care,  burning/desecrating that flag would have been made for a reason I feel strongly about and I would likely consider that the values that underpin that action are worth more to me than the offense expressed by that person, hence I would just keep on going with whatever I was doing. Most likely we wouldn't be coming to any sort of agreement on the matter - that person would still think I'm an anarcho-communist disrespectful atheist  and I would keep thinking they're just jarheads. That is a sad point to arrive at, but *spoilers* sometimes in life, especially when it relates to things that are loaded with values are pretty arbitrary interpretation of abstract symbolism, then people are bound to disagree.

Being offended just isn't a license to claim moral virtue just by way of having been offended. All it gives you license to is to air your grievances and hopefully convince whatever offended you of your perspective and come to some sort of common ground. If that simple fact cannot be understood than I don't even know why you would bother living in a democracy, or even in a society. Disagreement is just a part of reality, at least until (if) we ever find some moral framework so compelling that anyone with a handful of functioning neurons would have no choice to but agree with everyone else.

Franck Vee, flags and protests brought this famous photo to mind:
https://images.app.goo.gl/tN1UXKFqMmo6GD2w8

Best, Helen

Ty Gilroy wrote:

Uh oh! Looks like Ive triggered a gym climber!

…and trad, sport, ice, and even bouldering.